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Post by bear (Deceased) on Apr 2, 2012 13:00:39 GMT 9
There are access panels by the actuators, res on I know is a B Model at Osan the main door select valve malfunction when the CC and Pilot were slow opening the doors. What were the T.O. numbers for the Arm, and the Hdy system?
Bear
Good advice Jim
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MOW
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Post by MOW on Apr 2, 2012 14:30:28 GMT 9
You know, for what the intent of this resto will be for, or at least what we've heard the intent to be so far, I think I would go the route of making everything elec motor operated and not even touch the air or fluid methods. Safer, easier to control and maintain etc.
And to echo what Marv says in a couple of his comments on the photo gallery about the wiring, forget those wires! Run new wiring to whatever device is used/needed and just leave the old ones there for good looks :clap
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dave0164
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Post by dave0164 on Apr 2, 2012 23:34:29 GMT 9
Greetings all. My apologies for not joining this discussion sooner, but I seem to be computer illiterate. I can pilot a $12M helicopter, but I can't work my cell phone. Go figure. My name is Dave Peltz and - for lack of better description- I am serving as the project director for the restoration of 0164. I would like to express my thanks to Pat for this great website and to all the great members who have kept the memory of the six alive and well. I have met with Lindel and Lugnuts55 (great guys), and I am looking forward to working with them as we move ahead with this project. There is so much experience and knowledge in your group that I must admit feeling a little out of place among experts. I will however, try and do my best to honor your service and sacrifice with an accurate and complete restoration that any "six" veteran would be proud of. Any, and all opinions, advice, suggestions, and comments are welcome. I will continue to join in discussions as my schedule permits, and I look forward to learning a whole bunch of new six info. If I posted all the questions I have now, your server would crash. We will continue to charge boldly ahead at a glacial pace! Thanks for all the support.
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Post by lindel on Apr 2, 2012 23:47:01 GMT 9
It would have to be someone extremely thin to crawl up and undo any of the door actuators. There's only about 8" of space that I could see.
I do plan on participating, as work and gas money allows (damn gas prices...), but I don't see us being able to do much until the bird is off the trailer.
Good point on not apply any air or fluids until we can verify cylinders and seals Jim.
I'm also concerned about the charges/rocket motors for the seats. I don't know if it was SOP to remove/deactivate them for storage or not, and the thought of finding out the hard way doesn't appeal much!
I did warn Dave about the possibility of hydraulic leaks, considering there's no MA-1 system in it (more about that in a sec).
I did mention that it might be worth while to install mock "boxes" into the existing MA-1 equipment racks, since they're intact for the most part. I'll need to see if I can find pictures of the units with labels and lamp colors for authenticity.
It does include the nose gear, so that could support the front, and if the rear bulkhead can support the rear, we'd be able to really make some headway on the restoration. Once we get the canopy off or functional. It can be released and raised a little bit by hand, but the weight makes it hard to manage much height.
MOW, do you want me to email the pics or send you the link to my photobucket account?
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Post by lindel on Apr 2, 2012 23:49:49 GMT 9
Glad to see you made it Dave! I plan on getting in touch with some friends of mine and maybe drum up a little more hands-on help. We'll see!
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Post by ma1marv on Apr 3, 2012 1:02:46 GMT 9
Dave - you need to be prepared for the mountains of info that will be coming your way!
MArv :fire_missle_ani :patriotic-flagwaver
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dave0164
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Post by dave0164 on Apr 3, 2012 4:46:10 GMT 9
Marv, I'm already surprised by the input so far. So many questions, I don't know where to start. I guess the next major hurdle is to remove 0164 from the trailer so she can sit on her own. We were thinking nose gear in the front, and a jig attached to the rear bulkhead (spar) so we could still have access to the weapons bay. The question is whether that rear cast spar can support the weight that remains. We're guessing the section weighs between 8 and 9,000 pounds. The spar would have to hold about 60-70% of that. Weight distribution and sheer factor might be critical. Any idea from those in the know about what that spar can handle in terms of structural load? There are also two outboard points(part of the spar) that would have been covered by the leading edge of the wing. They each have a space to attach a bolt or pin. Would these be in any way load bearing capable?
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Post by pat perry on Apr 3, 2012 5:01:26 GMT 9
Greetings all. My apologies for not joining this discussion sooner, but I seem to be computer illiterate. I can pilot a $12M helicopter, but I can't work my cell phone. Go figure. My name is Dave Peltz and - for lack of better description- I am serving as the project director for the restoration of 0164. I would like to express my thanks to Pat for this great website and to all the great members who have kept the memory of the six alive and well. I have met with Lindel and Lugnuts55 (great guys), and I am looking forward to working with them as we move ahead with this project. There is so much experience and knowledge in your group that I must admit feeling a little out of place among experts. I will however, try and do my best to honor your service and sacrifice with an accurate and complete restoration that any "six" veteran would be proud of. Any, and all opinions, advice, suggestions, and comments are welcome. I will continue to join in discussions as my schedule permits, and I look forward to learning a whole bunch of new six info. If I posted all the questions I have now, your server would crash. We will continue to charge boldly ahead at a glacial pace! Thanks for all the support. Welcome Dave! I found some info on Timmerman for those of us not familiar. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_J._Timmerman_Airportand www.flymilwaukee.com/Tell us more about your role in this project as you get the time. Sounds like you have a end result plan worked out which makes it a lot easier to plan the steps to get there. How about the budget? I believe it was reported you bought the front end on e-bay and had to transport it. And no doubt you'll need some resto expense money. After most of us finish buying more guns, ammo and food provisions we may find a few bucks left over to help the project along so don't forget to tell us where to send donations. Especially after you get your website going. This group has helped save a bunch of F-106s over the years through donations of money and hands on time. Some of the restos we have supported may have some spare parts left over that you might be able to get cheap or free. Who knows... one of them may even have a spare nose gear? Keep in touch. Dang, If I could just remember that old baseball joke about "The Beer That Made Mel Famey Walk Us" :rofl Pat P.
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MOW
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Post by MOW on Apr 3, 2012 5:42:38 GMT 9
Lindel - send me your link. I can download them from there.
Dave - great to have you with us! As you can see, everyone is abuzz with the chance to be involved with another Six project :clap
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Post by lindel on Apr 3, 2012 8:34:02 GMT 9
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Post by Jim on Apr 3, 2012 9:31:18 GMT 9
Marv, I'm already surprised by the input so far. So many questions, I don't know where to start. I guess the next major hurdle is to remove 0164 from the trailer so she can sit on her own. We were thinking nose gear in the front, and a jig attached to the rear bulkhead (spar) so we could still have access to the weapons bay. The question is whether that rear cast spar can support the weight that remains. We're guessing the section weighs between 8 and 9,000 pounds. The spar would have to hold about 60-70% of that. Weight distribution and sheer factor might be critical. Any idea from those in the know about what that spar can handle in terms of structural load? There are also two outboard points(part of the spar) that would have been covered by the leading edge of the wing. They each have a space to attach a bolt or pin. Would these be in any way load bearing capable? Reply # 19 and pics 5&6 It would not be the lower attach points that would be of the greatest concern, UNLESS, you couldn't get the jig face to bear fully against the cast bulkhead. This would be a MUST, as well as being able to spread the compression of the bolt head against the forward face of the casting. This could be done by making fillers to fit in the cavities of the casting and coming flush with the perimeter flanges of the casting. These could be made from lignum vitae (an extremely hard hardwood) and painted with zinc chromate. These spacers would provide bearing surfaces and prevent damage to the casting. Making these somewhat thicker would provide clearance to allow the doors to operate..... These lower points would be subject to SHEAR STRESS The upper attachments would be subject to both SHEAR and TENSION STRESSES. As long as the display is stationary, all weight on the jig will be Dead Weight... When moving the display, as you expressed a desire to do, the weight on the jig now becomes LIVE WEIGHT and will change type of stress on top and bottom jig attach points with each change of direction being moved. For the upper attach points, I would go into the bay made by the first and second webs from center to make my upper mounts..... DO NOT put one mount in the center!!!!!!! If you look close you will see that the casting for the bulkhead is actually 2 castings spliced together in the center (both upper and lower) making it generally the weakest parts of the assembly...... You will have to figure out how to brace the legs/feet of the jig against the fuselage to prevent them trying to walk when moving the display. This will be true even with wheels on the jig..... Not trying to make your endeavor any more difficult, but trying to eliminate pitfalls before they raise their ughly heads...... Suggest that all suggestions/advice be printed here so that others may add to or correct any advice given........ One note here, if you don't have access to AN, MS or NAS rated hardware, use SAE grade 8 bolts, washers and nuts as they will have a high enough tensile strength for what you are going to require. The Old Sargel
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dave0164
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Post by dave0164 on Apr 3, 2012 10:59:56 GMT 9
Pat, thanks for the welcome and thanks to everyone who has posted so far. I really appreciate the help and input. I'll try and outline the short and long term goals for the restoration when I get more free time. Right now I have a handle on the budget, but that may change as we progress. The information you guys can provide is priceless!
Jim, thanks for the info. I will pass it on to my engineer pal and maybe he can respond to you directly. He knows far more than I about stress, fatigue, and metallurgy. You have confirmed what I thought, and that is we need to be careful and make sure we can secure the rear of the airframe safely and sturdily. I will take more detailed pics of the casting and post them so we can brainstorm. We will consult the experts (you guys) before moving ahead with big decisions that could negatively effect the overall goal.
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Post by ma1marv on Apr 3, 2012 13:23:34 GMT 9
Well one thing in your favor- the forward jacking point should still be completely intact. That point is a round (1-1/2 inch) hole located just at the bottom of the forward fuselage, probably just inbetween the forward door latches on the RADAR and Computer doors. There should be a marking to indicate that point and probably a small circular cover over it with a single screw right in the middle. The nose can be jacked up from that point andwill not interfere with the nose gear operation. The gear retraction was often checked with no other supports than the nose jack and two wing jacks in place. I would suggest putting a web sling around the belly of the unit and supporting the frame from above. The sling was made of nylon and heavy cotton material and was installed just aft of the lower acces hatch - commonly called the "05" compartment. The doors could be cycled when the aircraft was suspended this way - but only in a slow mode of operation. Fast cycling would cause too much sway on the airframe. I would guess that some sort of outriggers could be fastened to the airframe to keep the sidways motion to a minimum. If you can find the picture of the early gun mod aircraft at Tyndall during a test fire of the vulcan, you would see the sling setup I am referring to. The Gun mod bird was put in a sling with the nose gear up and locked to be able to test fire the vulcan without cutting the nose gear off!
MArv
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Post by shadowgunner on Apr 3, 2012 15:40:44 GMT 9
here's a link to the san diego air & space museum archive video of the six-shooter. Maybe something in the video will help; besides being a cool video.
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Post by shadowgunner on Apr 3, 2012 15:45:21 GMT 9
here's a link to the san diego air & space museum archive video of the six-shooter. Maybe something in the video will help; besides being a cool video.
This one's about the F-102 armament door/rail system (which is similar) , but it has some more cool info.
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Post by Jim on Apr 4, 2012 3:52:29 GMT 9
For door operation, the animated schematic showing snubbing air
is important, hell it is critical even in the use of reduced hyd. press. Snubbing hyd fluid would have to return to a reservoir, whereas the snubbing air was vented overboard.
I believe that trying to find elect screwjack motors to operate the doors will be 2 things:virtually impossible to find and out of this world as far as expense goes.....If you could find them......
Like MArv said: don't use existing wiring, run your own.. You can unwire the Canon (ITT) or Bendix (Amphenol)plugs and install your own leads... OR, IF and that is a big IF, you can find any wiring schematics with wire numbers on them, you could possibly isolate and dead end the wires you don't need... Mounting the whole thing on its own trailer would allow you retract the nose gear... Here againthe same thing would apply to the nose gear and door actuators.. You might be lucky and that they could possibly contain hyd fluid, which you definitely would want to purge out...... Distance and aching old knees will keep me from hands on- Jealousy is raising its ughly head................ The Old Sarge
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dave0164
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Post by dave0164 on Apr 4, 2012 4:37:28 GMT 9
Great info. We have some big challanges ahead, but I'm confident we can find a creative way to achive our objective. I stopped at the hangar quickly today and shot some pics of the rear spar and right side avionics bay (finally got it open - it had a broken latch), as well as other interesting points. I'll try and post later tonight. If we are to get the weapons bay operational, it is critical that we find a way to mount a jig to the rear and use the nose gear as the forward point. When it was cut from the rear section, some cuts were made in the rear spar. Hopefully they did not compromise the structural integrity too much. Chime in after you get a chance to review the photos. I have a photo of a F4 forward section that is mounted in a similar way, and I'll upload it for reference if I can figure out how. Thanks for the latest info.
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Post by ma1marv on Apr 4, 2012 5:01:43 GMT 9
I think that the electric screwjacks can be found by going to an RV dealer! My 2003 Gulf Stream has electric screw jacks on all of the slideouts. They only take a 12 volt connection to operate.
The bigger problem would be to get them installed in the airframe and make them fit. Nothing that a big hammer, arc welder, and some C-4 can't fix!
MArv :fire_missle_ani :patriotic-flagwaver
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Post by Jim on Apr 4, 2012 9:54:20 GMT 9
thanks MArv, forgot about those slide outs......
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MOW
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Post by MOW on Apr 4, 2012 11:42:12 GMT 9
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