delta2477a
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Post by delta2477a on Apr 2, 2007 4:51:22 GMT 9
Which would have been a better interceptor?
My opinion would be the F-12B... The prototypes of it (YF-12A) already flew, and the money spent had already been spent. Only another $360,000,000 would have been needed to build 93 F-12B's. The F-106X would have required an $1,000,000,000 in theory (it may have cost more) to develop, test-fly and put into active service. This means that a billion more dollars would be needed to get the F-106X into the air, but only a few hundred million to get 93 F-12B's flying.
Additionally, the F-12B likely featured a much longer range providing a far greater intercept capability, and what appears to be a higher top-speed (if not a higher top speed, a substantially higher cruise speed which is almost up against the top-speed) that would be on par with the SR-71, the same basic radar system to my knowledge, and a superior armament (F-12B: 4xAIM-47's, F-106X: 1 AIM-47, 2xAIM-26/4xAIM-4 ?) .
The only area where I think the F-12B may have had a slight problem was self-starting capability. The YF-12 featured a chemical-starter which used a chemical reaction that could spin the compressor up to target RPM where the engine could be started. Although I've heard at least one source that said the F-12B would have been able to operate independantly and start it's own engines. Could be wrong though.
What is your opinion?
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delta2477a
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Post by delta2477a on Apr 3, 2007 22:44:41 GMT 9
Did I commit some kind of forum heresy by saying I thought the F-12 was better than the F-106?
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Post by pat perry on Apr 4, 2007 0:14:24 GMT 9
Did I commit some kind of forum heresy by saying I thought the F-12 was better than the F-106? Why do you say that delta? Who doesn't like the Dart and the Habu, the fastest single and double engine jets in the world? Pat
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Post by pat perry on Apr 4, 2007 0:22:33 GMT 9
Did I commit some kind of forum heresy by saying I thought the F-12 was better than the F-106? Seems I read somewhere that if a Ruskie ICBM launched over the North Pole and was picked up by the DEW line radar, it could be intercepted by an F-12 scrambled from El Paso, TX before it crossed the Canadian border. I don't know if that's true or not but if so, that's one heck of an interceptor! Hat's off to Kelly Johnson and the guys at Lockheed Skunk Works for another amazing aircraft. Pat
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Post by pat perry on Apr 8, 2007 20:28:36 GMT 9
Was I wrong about Kelly Johnson dying of Alzheimer's? Did I offend somebody? Delta, if your directing that question to me, I thought the conversation was over. It helps if you use the "quote" button when you respond to a post so that folks know who you are talking to. If no one else has answered your original question then I'd say no one knows or perhaps, no one cares to comment on which is better between F-12 and F-106. There's also the possibility that some of our members don't visit the site very often but when they do, they respond to a number of conversations posted. I've seen questions go un answered for weeks so it's not unusual. Pat Perry 456th FIS PS: We had an SR-71 make an emergency landing at Castle back in 67-68. They sent a crew down from Beale AFB, CA to fix it. It was immediately towed off to the alert barn and repaired out of the view of us ordinary F-106 airmen. When the pilots left they went vertical at the end of the runway and disappeared before leveling out and returning to Beale. The support crew brought all their repair stuff in a C-130, including a direct driveshaft engine start unit that had two buick engines in it. I was told the other option was a combustion starter - don't know for sure. When I was at Naha AFB, Okinawa in 68-69 we had another SR-71 land just short of its Kadena AFB home. Seems it was taking pictures over North Vietnam and had an engine fail on the way home. They taxied right into a large hangar and closed all the doors. Two days later, same drill - vertical take off til out of sight.
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delta2477a
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Post by delta2477a on Apr 9, 2007 2:30:04 GMT 9
Makes sense there Mr. Perry. The Blackbird's official thrust rating may be 32,500, but the original non-modified J-58 which had a smaller airflow was said to produce like 26,500 dry and 45,000 with afterburner. Considering the J-58 used on the blackbird featured a compressor geometry re-design, to my knowledge a slight-scale up, and a substantial increase in core airflow, I would not be suprized if the J-58 could produce 31,500 to 32,500 dry, with no burner at all.
As an interesting note the Concorde's engine produces around 32,000 lbf dry and 38,030 with 20% afterburner. In the event of an engine failure or two, there is an emergency setting which adds an extra 80% power to the burner which would put thrust in the low to mid 50,000 lbf range-- granted it damaged the engine...
But considering the J-58 used on the Blackbird would have to be able to produce 26,500 at minimum (pre mod set up) and more likely in the low 30,000 range, that would yield an afterburner figure in the high 40,000 to low-50,000 lbf range (considering the blackbird engine is made out of materials designed for higher temps, this is not that far out of the question).
Well a Blackbird when fully loaded weighs around 140,000 to 170,000 lbs, but typically it takes off with only around 55,000 lbs of fuel, and only weighs around 60,000 (I'd guess justing by maximum fuel weights) without any fuel so with full burner and everything a vertical takeoff is more than possible, even if not able of accelerating or maintaining the exact same speed in a vertical climb, a good long run down the field will add some extra airspeed so during the climb you have extra speed to bleed off (assuming you can't maintain or accelerate while vertical).
Delta2477A
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MOW
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Post by MOW on Apr 9, 2007 12:37:26 GMT 9
Hi guys
Delta - you never have to worry about offending anyone here just because you mention a different plane. We are all Sizers yes, but we are also all plane guys, so I would venture to say it doesn't offend anyone, not me anyway.
As for the blackbird I've seen it fly many times at Beale and Okinawa and I absolutely loved that jet. Which is better? Who cares hahaha, I love them both.
Pat
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delta2477a
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Post by delta2477a on Apr 10, 2007 8:40:26 GMT 9
Great to hear!
Delta
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delta2477a
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Post by delta2477a on Jun 15, 2007 6:41:29 GMT 9
Does anybody know if the F-12B would have featured the tail-extension that the SR-71 featured? Or would it's tail have still remained like the earlier A-12/YF-12A?
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Post by Diamondback on Jun 15, 2007 7:43:16 GMT 9
My guess, since that spike was to accommodate an ECM box, it woulda gone on F-12B as well. I'll have to check with an old college buddy who's a Blackbird junkie and see if he has photos of the full-scale mockup...
And re F-12B vs. F-106E/F, why not both? The two birds woulda had two different "skill sets"--use the Blackbird for the "outer perimeter" and the 6Xes to mop up whatever gets through.
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delta2477a
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Post by delta2477a on Jun 15, 2007 11:52:22 GMT 9
I could understand the use for both... but the F-12B would only require 360 million dollars from YF-12A stage to production of 93 of these interceptors. The F-106X would have required a billion bucks flat to design.
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Post by Diamondback on Jun 15, 2007 12:22:12 GMT 9
But the F-12 also woulda had to get past Mac the Freakin' MORON Knife, who was out to stick it to everyone except his buddies at every opportunity, and Kelly Johnson was a high-profile opportunity to show everyone what happened when you didn't properly worship his derriere and all the effluent spewed from it.
Apologies, folks, but the mere fact of MacNamara's ever even existing really hacks me off.
Somwehere, there's a special corner of Hell reserved for that guy, hopefully roasting in Blackbird and 6X afterburners or being repeatedly keelhauled under the New Jersey.
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delta2477a
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Post by delta2477a on Jun 25, 2007 11:48:00 GMT 9
The cancellation of the A-12/YF-12A/F-12B/SR-71, and the ordered destruction of all the main assembly jigs and major tooling seems to me as a purely spiteful, vindictive act. To make it worse it was incredibly dumb.
Out of curiousity, who was the Undersecretary of Defense or Deputy Secretary of Defense (whichever was right under MacNamara), and was that the same person that ultimately replaced McNamara in 1968?
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delta2477a
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Post by delta2477a on Jul 10, 2007 1:50:29 GMT 9
Diamondback, does your friend have the pictures of the F-12B mockup?
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Post by Diamondback on Jul 10, 2007 11:11:19 GMT 9
Delta, haven't had a chance to check--he's out on vacation, I'm headed out soon myself, and I think his photos were from an issue of Wings or Airpower back when they were on their joint Blackbird streak...
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delta2477a
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Post by delta2477a on Jul 23, 2007 6:00:33 GMT 9
When he comes back, can you post the pictures?
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Post by delta2477a on Feb 8, 2008 3:20:24 GMT 9
Is it true that the F-12B was cancelled in order to keep funding the Vietnam War? If so, why did they approve the funds for the F-106X... it would have costed more (1 billion vs 360 million) to fund than to build the F-12B's. Plus the F-12B's with look-down shoot-down radars could have used an air-to-ground version of the AIM-47 the AGM-76A for strike missions in Vietnam, with or without a nuke it would have made an excellent air-defense suppression platform
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Post by rich256 on Feb 8, 2008 7:00:42 GMT 9
The AIM 47 would not have been much value in an air-to-ground mission. The ASG-18 radar in the look down mode is looking for moving targets.
AWG-9/AIM54 (F-14) was the next upgrade for air to air. Not a lot of difference from the mission of the F12 except for aircraft speed.
I worked TV guided Maverick all the way from development through flight test. It would have been a terrific weapon for Vietnam. Still is a great weapon. But we got it operational too late. We had 99 hits out of 100 test firings. (One unexplained tumble during flight).
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delta2477a
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Post by delta2477a on Feb 8, 2008 7:22:07 GMT 9
I was told the AN/ASG-18 radar could be programmed with some extra modes that would enable it to work Air-to-Ground...
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Post by rich256 on Feb 8, 2008 7:56:57 GMT 9
Not much that I know of would have made the ASG-18 good for air to ground. The high rep rate doesn't give range.
At about that same time we were doing heavy work on making a side looking radar working. The goal there was to come up with 10 foot resolution. The plan was to put it on B70 Number 3. A problem of using that system for air to ground weapons is that by the time you recognize the target you are already several miles past it. The missile has to be programmed to reverse direction to get to the target.
It was a great time to be working in the industry. Watching the development go from the primitive vacuum tube computer to that used in the first F-14 (And that one is primitive by today's standards). Dream was to come up with a flat display. Compare a GPS from Best Buy to the moving map display in the 106 :lol:
The last time I looked in the cockpit of a SR71 was in the late 70s and immediatly noted the round instruments of the early 60s.
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