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Post by jimpadgett on Apr 27, 2011 1:54:57 GMT 9
Could this be true of all aircraft or just the F-22 or neither. I seem to recall F-102, F-106, F-4C/Eand F-15C/D squadrons bettering this mark.
Raptor Unit Sets Single-Day Sortie Mark: An expeditionary contingent of F-22s, pilots, and maintainers from JB Elmendorf-Richardson, Alaska, set a record by completing 30 sorties in one day during its recent deployment to Kadena AB, Japan. "The fact that we could pull off such a feat is a big deal because no other single fighter squadron has ever done it," said Capt. Devin Hartman, officer in charge of Elmendorf's 525th Aircraft Maintenance Unit. Kadena officials stated that it was "an achievement unreached by other fighter squadrons in the Air Force so far." The 525th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron deployed to Kadena in January for about three months. During their time there, the Elmendorf airmen trained with elements of Kadena's 18th Wing, such as its F-15s and E-3 AWACS platforms, as well as Marine aviation on Okinawa. (Kadena report by A1C Maeson L. Elleman)
From Air Force Magazine on-line.
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Post by Bullhunter on Apr 27, 2011 1:56:13 GMT 9
OK, I'm stumped, whats the question?  ?  |
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Post by jimpadgett on Apr 27, 2011 1:59:57 GMT 9
Sorry Bull I was editing when you read the question.
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Post by Bullhunter on Apr 27, 2011 2:15:10 GMT 9
Oh,That explains it.
My answer...... and its just my guess. :scratch_head
The F-22 is a new aircraft with low hours on it. All other fighters in the services have plenty of hours on them and many combat hours under stress. Carring bombs, pulling G's, plus lots of landings and take-offs.
Just saying that new machines usually require less maintenance.
Whats your call?
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Post by Jim on Apr 27, 2011 5:05:22 GMT 9
OK, I'm stumped, whats the question? ? Being as Capt Hartman is not a member here, "You are full of crap, Sir".................. In the 72nd Ftr Bmbr Sqdn (of the 21st Ftr Bmbr Wg, Chambley AB, France 1955 ( 2 times) and in 1956 (one time) with 19 F-86Fs, we flew 55 air to air gunnery sorties and 10 air to ground sorties at Wheelus Field, Lybia..... Some a/c flew as many as six sorties.... The T-birds would change crew, refuel, check tow cable and take off before the next flight of 86s would get airborn..... These a/c had an average 300 hours on them as we had rec'd them brand new (flt test time only) in Jan - Feb of 1954 and flew them on the HiFlight from George AFB to Chambley...... 6 of these same birds flew back to Vincent AFB (Yuma) to take part in the AF world wide gunnery meet (later to become Wm Tell)... They also returned to Chambley after the meet was over...... 2 of these birds were spares that were not used in the competition......They were the champions in the the LABS and HABS competition for nuclear weapons delivery systems (early Special Weapons?)........ In January of 1957 at Griffiss with F-94Cs we flew 36 sorties and fired 750 2.75Mickey Mouse rockets flying 16 a/c........ And the name of the squadron was the 27th FIS, not some phoney high flauting title of Expeditionary Force Fighter Squadron..... We had 18 hang fires or duds......... I realize the young kids of today and those that came in 20 - 25 years ago had nothing to do with the feely good medals, ribbons, badges, camoflage work uniforms and fancy unit titles, the complete renumbering of regs, manuals and speciality codes, but is still the same thing as calling the garbageman a Sanitation Engineer just to make him feel good and impress his neighbors........ Sorry I got off on a tangent, but Expeditionary Force Squdron, Group or Wing just doesn't impress me......... Another thing Captain, in 1957 ADC took 10 F-102s and based them at Truax Field to fly them til they broke.... There were many days when those 10 birds flew more than 3 sorties each....... This was done as a daily routine, not something planned........ But I guess PC wins out every time......... It is an accomplishment, true, but not some SuperHero feat by any stretch of the imagination......... The Old Sarge Just checked the AF Magazine and there is no provision for comments, otherwise I would have posted this post there................. |
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Post by LBer1568 on Apr 27, 2011 5:12:37 GMT 9
The article leaves out more than it answers. How many Aircraft were deployed? How many participated in sortie generation? How many sorties/bird total?
Each Airframe has a crew to airframe ratio. In old F106 units it was typically two pilots per bird. Aircrews were limited to how many sorties/hours per day they were allowed to fly. We also remember that we had at least 4 F-106's sitting alert with a full crew setup. A typical squadron was 16 birds if I remember right (I'm almost 67 now so things get hazy). We also had to have relief crews standing down so they were "ready" to take over scramble duties.
I remember several "exercizes" at McGuire with old 539th where we had to close out the day because of crew rest limits even though we had many birds ready to go. I seem to remember we did 35 in a single day with several Code 1 birds refueled ready to fly when we ran out of crews to fly them.
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Post by Bullhunter on Apr 27, 2011 7:36:01 GMT 9
JIM and lber1568,,,Does not look or sound like your memories have failed you guys at all. You guys sure remember the facts.
The USAF was totally different in the 1950's and 60's. It had change by the time I enlisted in 1971 and had changed maybe twice before I retired in 1995. From what I hear from my daughter and her husband it is now totally different. PC has ruined it!
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Post by Jim Scanlon (deceased) on Apr 27, 2011 8:29:24 GMT 9
Anyone who was in ADC in the Fifties and Sixties knows that the F-22 story is PC junk.
Our ADC squadrons normally had between 20 and 26 birds, not including T-Birds.
At The SCAB we had 24 F-86D/Ls.
At Minot we had twenty F-106s, 59-001 through 59-020 A Models, 57-2545 and 58-0901 B Models, plus two T-Birds and a U-3
There were no "pre-announced" ORIs or other exercises.
The inspection team drove on base, called the squadron commander and told him that the squadron was to scramble all planes as quickly as possible.
It was usually around 03Dark when the phone calls went out.
The four birds in the Alert Barn headed out as soon as the horn blew.
Pilots and ground crews who lived on base showed up, sometimes wearing civvies, and began to pre-flight and launch as quickly as possible.
When the troops who lived off-base got to the flight line it was "Balls to the Wall".
We would launch and recover our Saber Dogs or Ells, and later the Sixes, as often and as quickly as possible.
If there were broken birds, in the hanger or on the ramp, crews were sent to get them back in commission as soon as possible.
I have seen test flights flown as part of a regular ORI launch.
Normally, when the Inspectors called an end to the exercise, we had more birds in commission than when the horn blew.
We ate box lunches from the chow hall, and the coffee pots were never empty in the maintenance office.
We slept when we could, and where we could, but we kept the birds in the air.
Crew rest was the only limiting factor, but every pilot in the squadron, from the CO down, including the maintenance officer, were in the air as much as they could be.
We had a steady line of JP-4 trucks on the way to refuel, or going back for more fuel.
Everyone busted their butts for as many hours as it took, and got the job done.
I'm still amazed at how few write-ups there were during the exercises, and how happy the pilots were with the birds.
When the final flight landed, and the birds were put to bed, it was time for a kegger in the hanger.
Lots of suds, lots of stuff to eat from the chow hall, and lots of very happy troops.
I doubt anyone will ever see the likes of it again.
Talk about "Happy Days", yep, those were happy days.
I'm glad I was a part of it.
Jim Too
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Post by pat perry on Apr 27, 2011 9:09:29 GMT 9
I think it was 1967 when the 456th FIS at Castle AFB flew 106 sorties in 6 hours with 16 F-106 and 1 T-33 target aircraft. Here's the link with Col Marcotte's interview (sorry the picture enlargement links are broken temporarily). www.456fis.org/106_MISSIONS.htmand here is a blow up of part of the article. It was a memorable day! p 2 |
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Post by lindel on Apr 27, 2011 9:15:17 GMT 9
I heard that during the "shock and awe" phase of Desert Storm, F-15 squadrons were flying sorties by the tens of dozens before stopping for maintenance, fuel refill, ammo loads and crew changes only.
I don't know how true this is, but it's what I heard.
I do remember Sixes at Griffiss flying night and day during operations, but I couldn't tell you any number of sorties per bird.
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Post by Jim on Apr 27, 2011 10:28:03 GMT 9
Copy of letter sent to Air Force Magazine: From: Jim G Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 6:23 PM To: letters@afa.org Subject: F-22 sortie record not true Your article concerning the 30 sorties in one day with the F-22 and Capt Hartman are grossly in error as the attached posting to the F-106 Form will attest......................... Believe the Captain should change his claim to read "A record for the F-22, as there other a/c and squadrons that had better records over 50 years ago........ Jim Gier SMSgt USAF ret (1952-1977) aka The Old Sarge -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think it was 1967 when the 456th FIS at Castle AFB flew 106 sorties in 6 hours with 16 F-106 and 1 T-33 target aircraft. Here's the link with Col Marcotte's interview (sorry the picture enlargement links are broken temporarily). www.456fis.org/106_MISSIONS.htmand here is a blow up of part of the article. It was a memorable day! p2 Pat Perry And this without a link and not much proof, other than my word, as I was there ".................. In the 72nd Ftr Bmbr Sqdn (of the 21st Ftr Bmbr Wg, Chambley AB, France 1955 ( 2 times) and in 1956 (one time) with 19 F-86Fs, we flew 55 air to air gunnery sorties and 10 air to ground sorties at Wheelus Field, Lybia..... Some a/c flew as many as six sorties.... The T-birds would change crew, refuel, check tow cable and take off before the next flight of 86s would get airborn..... These a/c had an average 300 hours on them as we had rec'd them brand new (flt test time only) in Jan - Feb of 1954 and flew them on the HiFlight from George AFB to Chambley...... 6 of these same birds flew back to Vincent AFB (Yuma) to take part in the AF world wide gunnery meet (later to become Wm Tell)... They also returned to Chambley after the meet was over...... 2 of these birds were spares that were not used in the competition......They were the champions in the the LABS and HABS competition for nuclear weapons delivery systems (early Special Weapons?)........ In January of 1957 at Griffiss with F-94Cs we flew 36 sorties and fired 750 2.75Mickey Mouse rockets flying 16 a/c........ And the name of the squadron was the 27th FIS, not some phoney high flauting title of Expeditionary Force Fighter Squadron..... We had 18 hang fires or duds......... I realize the young kids of today and those that came in 20 - 25 years ago had nothing to do with the feely good medals, ribbons, badges, camoflage work uniforms and fancy unit titles, the complete renumbering of regs, manuals and speciality codes, but is still the same thing as calling the garbageman a Sanitation Engineer just to make him feel good and impress his neighbors........ Sorry I got off on a tangent, but Expeditionary Force Squdron, Group or Wing just doesn't impress me......... Another thing Captain, in 1957 ADC took 10 F-102s and based them at Truax Field to fly them til they broke.... There were many days when those 10 birds flew more than 3 sorties each....... This was done as a daily routine, not something planned........ But I guess PC wins out every time......... It is an accomplishment, true, but not some SuperHero feat by any stretch of the imagination......... The Old Sarge Read more: forum.f-106deltadart.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=otheraircraftinfo&thread=2426&page=1#20844#ixzz1KgL9z81g |
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Post by Bullhunter on Apr 27, 2011 11:10:03 GMT 9
I remember one ORI at McChord AFB (318th FIS). The ORI hit with no notice. The alert birds were out of the barn and gone into the dark sky.
Recall went out and troops and pilots started ariving at the squadron. The aircraft were readied and started flying. It was great. Even the ISO bird was put back together and flew in part of the ORI.
We thought the ORI was over as all the birds returned on day 6 and no more missions were tasked.
It was all quiet for several hours then the alert horn sounded. Crews and crew chiefs ran onto the flight line and we specialists positions ourselves and trucks close by incase need.
It was awesome in the earliy evening light. All the jets starting up, anti collision lights flashing, nav wing tip lights on, landing lights on for taxing, and everything started to move. No aborts!
Every jet took off in a matter of minutes.
I think the ORI Inspectors tried to catch us with our pants down.
After the jets returned it was all over and party time. :yellow-beer
That was F-106's in 1976 or 78. :salute
:fire_missle_ani :fire_missle_ani :fire_missle_ani
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Post by Mark O on Apr 27, 2011 13:15:55 GMT 9
I think it was 1967 when the 456th FIS at Castle AFB flew 106 sorties in 6 hours with 16 F-106 and 1 T-33 target aircraft. I KNEW I read that somewhere! I actually started searching for that story when I read this thread this afternoon. Thanks for posting it. You know, everyone wants to toot their own horn, so I can understand the F-22 folks doing it. I guess the point is you have to specify what "record" you are setting, or breaking. Then there are the caveats. i.e. - "This record was set in peacetime at a home station just to see if we could do it." Or, "This record was set during an ORI, a SIOP generation, a wartime surge, a humanitarian mission, blah, blah, blah...." You get the point. I'm reminded of all the "records" I've seen of all female crews doing this or that. Great! But really, the word "first" is a bit overused when the USAF tries to toot it's own horn. It's really what the USAF want's to "sell" at any given time. I'm thinking how the Chief of Staff originally and publicly said the F-22 would be involved in the Libya operations. When it didn't happen, they sure back-peddled away from that! ("Oh, all the F-22s are stationed in the USA, and we needed aircraft that were closer.") BS! We sent B-1s on non-stop missions from fricken Ellsworth for goodness sakes!! Now we're sending drones!! As much as the USAF tries to beat it's own history down our throats, the more they dilute it, and really forget the TRUE firsts that happened. You guys are what I'm talking about. I mean seriously, we have to learn the history of the USAF to get promoted, and it seems to me they put more emphasis on that than how to lead. Oh well,... That's the way I see it anyway. Mark |
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Post by pat perry on Apr 27, 2011 23:17:30 GMT 9
I remember one ORI at McChord AFB (318th FIS). The ORI hit with no notice. The alert birds were out of the barn and gone into the dark sky. Recall went out and troops and pilots started ariving at the squadron. The aircraft were readied and started flying. It was great. Even the ISO bird was put back together and flew in part of the ORI. We thought the ORI was over as all the birds returned on day 6 and no more missions were tasked. It was all quiet for several hours then the alert horn sounded. Crews and crew chiefs ran onto the flight line and we specialists positions ourselves and trucks close by incase need. It was awesome in the earliy evening light. All the jets starting up, anti collision lights flashing, nav wing tip lights on, landing lights on for taxing, and everything started to move. No aborts! Every jet took off in a matter of minutes. I think the ORI Inspectors tried to catch us with our pants down. After the jets returned it was all over and party time.  That was F-106's in 1976 or 78.   Hi Bullhunter, What a fantastic picture of the 318th Flightline! Thanks for sharing. :2thumbsup p 2 |
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Post by pat perry on Apr 27, 2011 23:52:09 GMT 9
I think it was 1967 when the 456th FIS at Castle AFB flew 106 sorties in 6 hours with 16 F-106 and 1 T-33 target aircraft. I KNEW I read that somewhere! I actually started searching for that story when I read this thread this afternoon. Thanks for posting it. You know, everyone wants to toot their own horn, so I can understand the F-22 folks doing it. I guess the point is you have to specify what "record" you are setting, or breaking. Then there are the caveats. i.e. - "This record was set in peacetime at a home station just to see if we could do it." Or, "This record was set during an ORI, a SIOP generation, a wartime surge, a humanitarian mission, blah, blah, blah...." You get the point. I'm reminded of all the "records" I've seen of all female crews doing this or that. Great! But really, the word "first" is a bit overused when the USAF tries to toot it's own horn. It's really what the USAF want's to "sell" at any given time. I'm thinking how the Chief of Staff originally and publicly said the F-22 would be involved in the Libya operations. When it didn't happen, they sure back-peddled away from that! ("Oh, all the F-22s are stationed in the USA, and we needed aircraft that were closer.") BS! We sent B-1s on non-stop missions from fricken Ellsworth for goodness sakes!! Now we're sending drones!! As much as the USAF tries to beat it's own history down our throats, the more they dilute it, and really forget the TRUE firsts that happened. You guys are what I'm talking about. I mean seriously, we have to learn the history of the USAF to get promoted, and it seems to me they put more emphasis on that than how to lead. Oh well,... That's the way I see it anyway. Mark Mark, Great post! Facts is facts but are sometimes left on the floor due to constraints on column width restrictions in the news. We can only hope that the troops in those organizations were informed of all the facts surrounding the record set. 456er Milt Bonham just sent me this neat video of the F-22 Raptor from a TV show called Flight Line which I never heard of, but looks interesting (check some of the other videos they have). I marveled at the fact that the F-22 shown cost $137M and compared that to a F-106 that cost $3.5M back in the day. One Raptor costs as much as 39 F-106s. Of course one would have to measure not only inflation adjustment but mission capability to get a feel for the differences that technology has added to the productivity of the Raptor. Instead of 39:1 on a pure dollar basis, it may be 3 or 4:1 on a total basis? www.aircraftowner.com/videos/view/f22-raptor-on-the-flightline-tv-show_1769.htmlEnjoy, pat p :teacher |
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Post by lindel on Apr 28, 2011 4:44:20 GMT 9
My guess would be the latter, 3 or 4:1 as opposed to 39:1. It's certainly not worth 39 Sixes from a performance standpoint.
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Post by jimpadgett on Apr 28, 2011 22:32:17 GMT 9
Not to diminish the 456th FIS's accomplishment, but 106 SORTIES sounds high. Maybe INTERCEPTS would have been a more appropriate terminology. With 18 UE aircraft, that would have been almost 6 sorties per aircraft. And in 6 hours with how many pilots and what sortie duration?? Quite an accomplishment never-the-less.
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Post by pat perry on Apr 29, 2011 0:38:02 GMT 9
Not to diminish the 456th FIS's accomplishment, but 106 SORTIES sounds high. Maybe INTERCEPTS would have been a more appropriate terminology. With 18 UE aircraft, that would have been almost 6 sorties per aircraft. And in 6 hours with how many pilots and what sortie duration?? Quite an accomplishment never-the-less. Hi Jim, I found another chunk of that article. Says average mission time was 13 minutes. That would be 13 minutes mission time and 21 minutes average each for ground turn to get the job done in 6 hours. As I recall each bird came back to its parking spot for fuel top off if needed. The chute shop was busy although some chutes were probably not deployed since we had a 11,300 foot runway. AC and MA-1 crew chiefs looked like Indy pit crews while we shops guys were just off the flight line watching unless needed. It was beautiful clear day on a Saturday August 11, 1967 and SAC was not flying. We had the runway and air space over to the Sierra Navadas pretty much to ourselves through the FAA. There were no aborts or major discrepancies. I believe we had 16 birds that had the solid state MA-1 and IFR mod and a couple were still at McClellan getting retrofitted. I don't remember much more because of the beer bust that afternoon. Our CO and 3 pilots put on a heck of a show of formation flying after the 106th bird landed. They wanted to do some hi-speed passes but the SAC base ops wouldn't have it. I guess they thought we were already having too much fun. LtCol John Charles Marcotte was a great CO. He was shot down in WWII in a P-47 and was a POW. He was tough but always down on the flight line or in the shops with the troops. He could also demonstrate one-handed push ups in full Mess Dress at the O'Club during dining ins. John had me make a sign that said "Protectors of SAC" and hang it at our front gate. Occassionally he would get on the PA and summon crew chief Bruce Gookin to his office, "Gookin, get your ass in here". Every time Bruce and I go to Merced we stop by to visit John and Ginnie and try to drink all his Crown Royal. Just as we finish one bottle, he goes to the closet and gets another one. The 456th was my first assignment. We had a lot of 19-20 year old enlisted guys and some great NCOs. Most of our pilots were already at one tour in Vietnam and many went back for a second - they were cool guys. It was good chemistry and I guess that's why we've had a good turnout for 8 reunions. After 14 years at Castle, in '68 the squadron transferred to Oxnard and was separated into maintenance and pilot squadrons from that point forward. I had gone to SEA but the guys who stayed said after Oxnard that things were no longer the same. The espirit 'd corps was pretty much gone. pat p |
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Post by Jim on Apr 29, 2011 1:18:29 GMT 9
Have rec'd a form letter email fromAir Force Magazine acknowledging receipt of my email..... Will post reply if I should receive one..... The Old Sarge
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Post by Jim Scanlon (deceased) on Apr 29, 2011 1:41:08 GMT 9
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