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Post by Mark O on Feb 6, 2020 23:20:13 GMT 9
The way we did it. (Probably still do.) A SMSgt on the left - my pro super, and a SRA - my ACC on the right in Ecuador, 2006. THIS was NEVER a DSV! However, it is one of many reasons why QA, and Safety bubbas never got invited to our parties!
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Post by Jim on Feb 6, 2020 23:56:17 GMT 9
The way we did it. (Probably still do.) A SMSgt on the left - my pro super, and a SRA - my ACC on the right in Ecuador, 2006. THIS was NEVER a DSV! However, it is one of many reasons why QA, and Safety bubbas never got invited to our parties! WHY the hard-on for Quality Control and Safety People? Ever wonder why they had those jobs? How come you never asked yourself what you would do if that was your job? Why do tire-kickers and fuel hose dragers so resent these people? Probably because when the call went out for a replacement, it wasn't the best guy for the job got sent there. Most supervisors would send someone they didn't want, to do a job that they would then pissanmoan about that "a-hole in QC".... You reaped what you sowed. Me, I always sent one of my best, as it was generally a stepping stone to promotion. BTW, whatinhell is a pro super..... Is there such a frigging thing as an "indirect safety violation?"
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Post by Mark O on Feb 7, 2020 2:16:23 GMT 9
The way we did it. (Probably still do.) A SMSgt on the left - my pro super, and a SRA - my ACC on the right in Ecuador, 2006. THIS was NEVER a DSV! However, it is one of many reasons why QA, and Safety bubbas never got invited to our parties! WHY the hard-on for Quality Control and Safety People? Ever wonder why they had those jobs? How come you never asked yourself what you would do if that was your job? Why do tire-kickers and fuel hose dragers so resent these people? Probably because when the call went out for a replacement, it wasn't the best guy for the job got sent there. Most supervisors would send someone they didn't want, to do a job that they would then pissanmoan about that "a-hole in QC".... You reaped what you sowed. Me, I always sent one of my best, as it was generally a stepping stone to promotion. BTW, whatinhell is a pro super..... Is there such a frigging thing as an "indirect safety violation?" Well, first, a 'pro super' is short for Production Superintendent. Below that person is the Expeditor(s). We never used the term 'Line Chief', but I'm guessing that may be close. As far as QA goes, I'm sure the original intent was to make sure things were going safely, and by the book. Unfortunately, during my time - and to this day, as I work with active maintainers - it morphed into a bunch of vindictive, SOBs whose only thoughts are busting peoples chops. At NO time did I ever see a QA write-up turn into a positive experience where the AMU/flight/section came away better maintainers. When the QA all over the USAF is PROUD to use a frickin' VULTURE as their logo as opposed to, say, a professor, the entire program is a joke. Oh, I was asked to join QA when I was at GFAFB. No sir, not this guy. I was more effective teaching troops on the flight line as a first-line supervisor. So, that's why.
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Bullhunter
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Post by Bullhunter on Feb 7, 2020 2:19:02 GMT 9
Jim, I'm on my way to a medical test, but will respond to your post layer if I survive the test.
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Post by Mark O on Feb 7, 2020 2:33:24 GMT 9
Jim, I'm on my way to a medical test, but will respond to your post layer if I survive the test.
Oh geez, You don't have to say it. I get it!! I teach new Airmen every day now. I take safety very seriously now, AND I DID THEN!! What I'm saying is there has to be a balance, and if we all over-analyze every situation where the slightest potential for an injury could happen we would NEVER even bother getting out of bed; much less generate combat sorties. It's called Risk Management. (A 'Block I' lesson! Just taught that objective to my Airmen a couple days ago, in fact.) May as well save your keystrokes Gary. I'm done, and sorry I brought it up.
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Post by Jim on Feb 7, 2020 3:31:31 GMT 9
WHY the hard-on for Quality Control and Safety People? Ever wonder why they had those jobs? How come you never asked yourself what you would do if that was your job? Why do tire-kickers and fuel hose dragers so resent these people? Probably because when the call went out for a replacement, it wasn't the best guy for the job got sent there. Most supervisors would send someone they didn't want, to do a job that they would then pissanmoan about that "a-hole in QC".... You reaped what you sowed. Me, I always sent one of my best, as it was generally a stepping stone to promotion. BTW, whatinhell is a pro super..... Is there such a frigging thing as an "indirect safety violation?" Well, first, a 'pro super' is short for Production Superintendent. Below that person is the Expeditor(s). We never used the term 'Line Chief', but I'm guessing that may be close. As far as QA goes, I'm sure the original intent was to make sure things were going safely, and by the book. Unfortunately, during my time - and to this day, as I work with active maintainers - it morphed into a bunch of vindictive, SOBs whose only thoughts are busting peoples chops. At NO time did I ever see a QA write-up turn into a positive experience where the AMU/flight/section came away better maintainers. When the QA all over the USAF is PROUD to use a frickin' VULTURE as their logo as opposed to, say, a professor, the entire program is a joke. Oh, I was asked to join QA when I was at GFAFB. No sir, not this guy. I was more effective teaching troops on the flight line as a first-line supervisor. So, that's why. Your refusal to go QA or QC, might be why, in the outfit you were in , the QAers were asholers. Like I said, I never sent an asholer to QC, for that very reason. Blame your supervisors who were responsible for providing good people to look over their shoulder. The many years that I run periodic inspection branches, QC was always welcome in my hangars. Those that came in with a chip on their shoulders, soon had it knocked off. Almost three quarters of my career was either in periodic inspection branches or quality control.... Whenever I encountered an attitude like yours, there immediately began an educational program to dispel that attitude. Over the years, it rarely failed. One of the stunts I used was to take some one with that attitude and bring him into quality control, where he worked with me and he would accompany me on inspections, where he underwent an attitude change. Turned loose on his own, he was generally welcomed wherever he went. You may have done yourself a big disfavor by turning it down. So, if you are teaching young aircraft mechanics that the people in QA are asholers, you are perpetuating the animosity..... As for the vulture, I never saw one in my entire career.. I'll leave the professor thing alone.... The Old Sarge
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Post by LBer1568 on Feb 7, 2020 4:39:08 GMT 9
I worked flightline MA-1 for first 8 years of my career. When I first hit 539thFIS McGuire we had 2 MA-1 SSgts who worked QA/QC. They were both 20 year career folks. They did their job, but didn't get much praise from Working troops. Why? because they were sent their so the AF could get some good use from them. They were two of worst MA-1 troops I ever saw. They did not do Tech School, instead were retreads from MG-10/MG-13. Two similar Weapons Systems from F-101/F-102. Neither were as complex as MA-1. So it wasn't really their fault that they couldn't work anything other than black box swappers.
When 539th disbanded I went to Tyndall. Slightly different issues with QA/QC there. They had a large Weapons System group that worked all types of Aircraft, not just MA-1. So you never knew who you would get to do the Inspections. Largest portion of write-ups were missing safety wire, hose frayed, and light bulbs burned out. They also performed over the shoulder reviews of techs working on aircraft. Those were also just MA-1 reviewing MA-1. These were better reviews and included the "Safety" errors. Biggest write-ups were typically failed to use Tech Data etc. I remember one mid shift that QA followed me around for couple hours. I remember one inspection I got written up as safety issue because I didn't use proper Tech Data when connecting the Power Cart and Air conditioner before starting to work. I was qualified to work those and many other Ground Support units. When my supervisor saw the write-ups he challenged the QA guy and ended going to DM who tore up the write-ups. Seems the Tech Data wasn't available on 90% of units on flightline. But because we recertified every year on use of equipment, that counted. I did check the Equipment's "781" list of write-ups.
After I cross trained into Flight Simulation QA/QC was an in-house thing. We were not assigned to maintenance Squadron, rather to DO. We were not governed by 66-1 Maintenance Procedures. But about halfway though my tour at Upper Heyford, the Flight Simulators were transferred from Ops to Maintenance. We got our orientation from Chief of Maintenance QA guys and found out how tough these guys were. Fortunately about 4-5 of us were retrainees coming from Avionics backgrounds and were very familiar with QA Process. So we held in-house training sessions and never really had an issue with it afterwards. We never had to supply anyone to QA shop and our inspections were rather high level as these QA guys were not familiar with our equipment. They were impressed and considered us more like base Computer Shop. They were not familiar with "Clean room" concept of our actual joint computer and Simulator cockpit set-ups. They also were not up to speed on our visual systems and Hydraulic Systems and Power Generations units.
I actually set up mini-training sessions for QA shop so they could better serve our needs. We did have a few "Pure Sim" types who had never worked Aircraft Systems and were hard to convince that the 66-1 Maintenance Program would work for us.
I never saw QA as "the enemy" but rather as someone who made us do our job better and safer.
Lorin
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biendhoa
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Post by biendhoa on Feb 7, 2020 7:19:14 GMT 9
AFM 66-1 was the most stupid thing the AF ever did, when I was in ADC we went by it. When I went to Kadena I was in MAC and top maintenance commanders told the Chief of staff that it will not work for MASS sqdns. So we never went by it
Jay.
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biendhoa
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Post by biendhoa on Feb 7, 2020 7:26:07 GMT 9
And we never had any QC/QA either. used out top maintenance supervisors if job was a RED X .
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Post by Mark O on Feb 7, 2020 8:23:18 GMT 9
Okay, I truly do appreciate your point-of-view, but... So because I turned down a QA job it's MY FAULT that QA never once used a "fail" to teach the guys how to do their jobs better??!! No thank you. I am not hopping in a sinking ship. AND, (I know you said "if") I am teaching my students that QA is the enemy?? WTF???!!! Please do not presume I am doing that. I am NOT. I would get fired. My opinions are kept here in the forum. With respect to QA using a Vulture as their logo, it sure does not generate a lot of love from the troops when they see a truck pull up to their plane with THAT logo on the door of the truck. I can't speak to anything in the USAF prior to me joining in 2000. I will say the flying squadron's equivalent to QA - called STAN/EVAL, or Standarization/Evaluation - DID take the time to follow-up with sub-standard performance, and the crews came away better. Myself included. I never saw that in maintenance. Your mileage may certainly have varied from mine.
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Post by Jim on Feb 7, 2020 9:43:53 GMT 9
GUESS I left the USAF either in the wrong hands, or I left at the right time. That logo appeared long after I was gone. It had to have been generated by a wiseass. And, Jay, you may not have encountered any QC, but your outfit used it. Anybody with a 7 or 9 level, if on orders to do so could clear red X, and in some instances, 5 level SSgt were cleared to do so. But, clearing a red X was not the purpose of Quality Control. I found that trying to convince flight line personnel that QC only became the enemy when received as such. It was about like pissin up a rope and trying not get wet. Sometimes I stood up wind and was successful Most of QC's duties had to do with some form teardown put 'em back to together inspection, whether it be periodic or phase inspection, flight control rigging and major repairs and such. I was leaving about time it was mandatory that you have the tech order near you and opened to the page where you were at.I instructed my QC people that I had better not see any write-up for that. If the mechanic knew what he was doing and had a couple of stripes on his sleeve, quietly remind him that he should have the book handy. Mark reading your post, I got that impression based on your animosity. Jim
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Bullhunter
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Post by Bullhunter on Feb 7, 2020 11:51:01 GMT 9
Well, its just about all been talk over and explained above so I will save my fingers some key strokes. I'll leave you with a little story. I arrived at a jet engine shop as a TSgt. I'd always worked the flight. I was told I was now the NCOIC of Engine Maintenance. I worked for a MSgt who was the NCOIC of the shop. He told me they needed a good safety NCO and I was going to be it. It wasn't long before I noticed our troops disappearing for 30 to 45 minutes all the time. When I asked them where they had been they said to get a drink of water. I pointed a water cooler out right in our shop. The answer I got was it didn't work and had not worked for years. This hurt productivity. I talked to the MSgt who said it has never worked and he gave up trying to get it replaced. I told him I'd give it a try. He said I was wasting my time. Well, I inspected it and it did not supply any water. The drain had mold in it, so I got a Safety Hazard Form and filled it out. I detailed it did not supply water and mold was growing in the drain. I stated it was a bio hazard, our shop had a higher rate of illness to sick call & quarters, and that because the only other water supply for drinking was almost 100 yards away in the far end of the complex which hurt jet engine productivity. Three weeks later CE showed up with a bran new water cooler in a box and installed it. The MSgt asked how I did that and I said, I'm the safety NCO and that was a safety & health issue. Three years later a young NCO was doing something unsafe that was minor. I stopped him and told him he need safety goggles to do that. He debated a few seconds with me and said, Sgt Price you have been here about 3 years and in that time we haven't had any accidents. I said, Guess why that is, now go get your safety goggles. The thing about working safety, OC, or QA as its called now is that you never know when you have prevented an accident or injury, or even saved a life.
BTW, I survived my endoscopy.
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Post by LBer1568 on Feb 8, 2020 0:13:28 GMT 9
Since I retired in 1986 I never saw a patch like that. Was it a local design? Even though I retire in 1986 I continued to work with USAF and traveled to many bases. I even went to Saudi on a Tech Data Project. I don't remember seeing it . www.bing.com/images/search?q=usaf+qa+patch&id=DA40B2B4D7E3629FE10966B72AA54A2A92E8BF19&FORM=IQFRBAI simple search showed a large number of different QA Patches, all with Vulture. So I believe these are Custom Patches approved locally. Back in ADC we had a ton of custom Patches and we wore them on fatigues/coveralls. Every squadron had address of Patch making Company in Asia. I remember we had F-106 arm patches in different colors. One for each Branch. www.bing.com/images/search?q=usaf+f-106+patches&qpvt=usaf+f-106+patches&FORM=IGREBack when I first went to 539th FIS at McGuire AFB NJ we were a tenant organization on Military Air Transport Service (MATS) base. The big hangers on base had PRIDE, Professional Responsibility in Daily Endeavors. This was forerunner to QA/QC and a few other terms over my career. While I was Assigned to Operations Branch in Flight Simulators several of us in each location became Stan/Eval Qualified to perform Mission and Operate the Instructor's Console. Stan/Eval also qualified us to conduct Engine Qualifications for Flight Line Troops. We usually ran an engine Qual once a week. On the F-111 all Crews and Engine Run people had to stay current. If a crew went on leave and had not started an engine in over 30 days they had to go through Sim to "Re-certify". That may have been limited to F-111 A and E as they had major issues with engines. They experienced a lot of compressor stalls. In fact they got so bad that crews had special take off routine to prevent stalls. They would take active runway, set the parking brake and light one engine to stage 1 burner, then #2, They would go through 4 stages of burner while\e sitting with parking brake on. Then release brake and go for normal takeoff. Can you imagine sitting on runway and trying to hold a six while in full A/B? I can see the skid marks as it went sliding down runway with brake set. I remember back when I was runup/taxi certified I would always use Idle Thrust switch to prevent rolling away. Lorin
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Post by pat perry on Feb 8, 2020 2:10:08 GMT 9
AFM 66-1 was mentioned in this thread. We don't have a copy in our Tech Order section: www.f-106deltadart.com/manuals_documents.htmWe could order the last one printed in Dec 1984 (37 pages) for about $50 but it was superseded by AFI 21-101 (331 pages combining 4 additional AFI manuals). The Free link to download AFI 21-101 is: static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a4/publication/afi21-101/afi21-101.pdfI got interested in the evolution of USAF Maintenance (especially switches between centralized to decentralized maintenance organizations) and found this link (text size is adjustable): www.thefreelibrary.com/Logistics+history%3a+the+new+wing+structure+consists+of+four+groups%3a...-a0133015892It runs about 18 page scrolls and I copied it into a MS Word File. It starts with WW I but if you scroll down to Establishment of the Air Force you'll see why the changes were made between Decentralized and Centralized Maintenance numerous times (ie: ADC to ADTAC). Hope you find it interesting as a part of understanding our USAF history and economics. The USAF 2020 budget is $165.6 Billion (equal to Chevron Oil annual revenues): www.saffm.hq.af.mil/FM-Resources/Budget/Chevron operates during boom and bust cycles through managing expenses. The USAF operates during peace and war cycles through managing expenses. It's all about economics. The difference is Chevron has a board of directors and the USAF has the US Congress. Need I say more after the events of the past 3 weeks? Enjoy! Pat P. PS: Our QC troops in the 456th FIS were good guys and I learned a lot from them.
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Post by pat perry on Feb 8, 2020 5:53:03 GMT 9
An interesting patch with a curious meaning. Sure would like to know the origin and meaning of the Buzzard (scavenger?) sitting on the Rattlesnake (deadly?) and the icons for eyes?, ear and nose (sight, sound and smell?) and the pitch fork in the fire (devil?). The picture is low resolution and kind of fuzzy so the eyes in the red field may have other pictures inside them. The creator of the patch may have used the words to tell how they should be regarded but the picture may mean how they are usually regarded by others. Maybe I am missing the connection between the six words and the images? Most of the official USAF approved squadron insignias were approved by the USAF back in WW II like the Luther octopus back in 1944. They were later updated/modified through changes by Squadron/Wing Commanders without necessarily being approved by USAF. Example below Pat P.
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Post by Jim on Feb 8, 2020 6:05:52 GMT 9
Nice research Pat.........66-1 was easy to follow...... UNTIL!!!!!!!!! you tried to outsmart it......... Even ADC supplement wasn't that difficult to comply with..... IF, you started out with it and operated by it. Where everyone got their ass in a crack was waiting until the ORI or IG or other inspection teams arrived. There use to be another maint. manual called AFM 66-Major Barrington, which was a supplement to the ADC Supplement. Not to be used during ORI, generally guaranteed failure when you had an abnormal recovery, and the Klaxon once again sounded. I have been in both outfits- ones that ignored the manual and its command supplements, and ones that utilized as written and intend it to used. Give me the latter any day.....You can't run a big operation by the seat of your pants for very long. And I have been in outfits that went from squadrons with airplanes, pilots and maintainers to where the crew chief didn't know the pilots, periodic inspection docks never even saw a pilot and the post dock crew might know the FCF pilots. The camaraderie amongst the OMS troops didn't exist.... The flying squadrons owned the airplane and allowed the maintainers to take care of them. What a difference when the 27th left Griffiss and the 606th CAMRON far behind.....Vast majority of us never took off our 27th FIS patch when they formed the 606 CAMRON from the 465th FIS (F-89-later the 49th FIS and F-101B), the 4713th ECM Squadron with EB-29s and EB-57s and the 27th FIS with F-102s.... Quite a change after 4 years at Loring and in an independent squadron, back to an OMS concept at Misawa, then back to a squadron operation in the 45TRS in Vietnam. Back to a OMS at Yokota, then Pilot Training at Williams.......
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Post by pat perry on Feb 8, 2020 6:50:01 GMT 9
Nice research Pat.........66-1 was easy to follow...... UNTIL!!!!!!!!! you tried to outsmart it......... Even ADC supplement wasn't that difficult to comply with..... IF, you started out with it and operated by it. Where everyone got their ass in a crack was waiting until the ORI or IG or other inspection teams arrived. There use to be another maint. manual called AFM 66-Major Barrington, which was a supplement to the ADC Supplement. Not to be used during ORI, generally guaranteed failure when you had an abnormal recovery, and the Klaxon once again sounded. I have been in both outfits- ones that ignored the manual and its command supplements, and ones that utilized as written and intend it to used. Give me the latter any day.....You can't run a big operation by the seat of your pants for very long. And I have been in outfits that went from squadrons with airplanes, pilots and maintainers to where the crew chief didn't know the pilots, periodic inspection docks never even saw a pilot and the post dock crew might know the FCF pilots. The camaraderie amongst the OMS troops didn't exist.... The flying squadrons owned the airplane and allowed the maintainers to take care of them. What a difference when the 27th left Griffiss and the 606th CAMRON far behind.....Vast majority of us never took off our 27th FIS patch when they formed the 606 CAMRON from the 465th FIS (F-89-later the 49th FIS and F-101B), the 4713th ECM Squadron with EB-29s and EB-57s and the 27th FIS with F-102s.... Quite a change after 4 years at Loring and in an independent squadron, back to an OMS concept at Misawa, then back to a squadron operation in the 45TRS in Vietnam. Back to a OMS at Yokota, then Pilot Training at Williams....... Jim, you experienced the "yo-yo effect" of decentralized to centralized squadron maintenance a number of times. I was lucky to be in the 456th FIS when the fliers and fixers were together for flying, commanders call and beer busts. We flew 106 WSEM sorties in 6 hours and 15 minutes with 16 birds and every one of them was code 1 after the event. I left for Okinawa in '68 and never felt that camaraderie again. The 456th FIS then transferred to Oxnard 437th FIS then 460th FIS in '68 but all the maintainers were in the Camron and hated it. I understand economics cycles and economies of scale but the smallest and best USAF combat unit is the combined squadron. Pat P
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Post by Mark O on Feb 9, 2020 9:26:49 GMT 9
Open this... After all the stories I've read here, this has GOTTA be one of you guys!!!
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Post by Jim on Feb 9, 2020 14:20:01 GMT 9
Open this... After all the stories I've read here, this has GOTTA be one of you guys!!! My younger brother
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Post by LBer1568 on Feb 9, 2020 23:10:06 GMT 9
Mark it's obviously not me because the MA-1 System isn't there. Tell-tell sign is the prop and not a Radar antenna up front.
Lorin
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