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Post by pat perry on Sept 17, 2011 10:02:49 GMT 9
RENO, Nev. (AP) — A plane plunged into the stands at an air race event in Reno in what an official described as a "mass casualty situation."
It wasn't immediately known how many people were killed. But video of the crash showed a horrific scene of bodies and wreckage at the front of the stands.
Mike Draper, a spokesman for the air races, told The Associated Press that Jimmy Leeward was the pilot of the P-51 Mustang that crashed into the box seat area at the front of the grandstand about 4:30 p.m. He said he did not have any information on the number of injured.
The National Championship Air Races draws thousands of people every year in September to watch various military and civilian planes race.
Fox reported that it was a P-51 called the Galloping Ghost.
2010 video of Reno arrival piloted by Lee Ward
Fox just reported 12 killed and 75 injured. Prayers for the survivors 25 of which were critically injured
Pat P.
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Post by Gene on Sept 17, 2011 12:21:51 GMT 9
this is the promo for that event... youtube has everything...
:us_flag
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Post by Mark O on Sept 17, 2011 13:29:35 GMT 9
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Post by shadowgunner on Sept 17, 2011 14:32:42 GMT 9
Amazing photos. The pilot is not visible in the side view closeup; it's a very tiny canopy and I wonder were he is? slumped over? submarined in the seat? just curious, but there is much to be discovered. My heart goes out to those affected by this incident. :cry
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MOW
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Post by MOW on Sept 17, 2011 14:44:04 GMT 9
Horrific event. I was watching the replay on TV here in Japan (TDY at Misawa now) and it was hard to watch.
I should have known something bad was going to happen today, because I woke up this morning to 2 earthquakes in the Misawa area.
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Post by Mark O on Sept 18, 2011 4:48:37 GMT 9
Amazing photos. The pilot is not visible in the side view closeup; it's a very tiny canopy and I wonder were he is? slumped over? submarined in the seat? just curious, but there is much to be discovered. The racing Mustangs are all heavily modified from their original design including the canopy, and spine. I first suspected he was pushed back in his seat, but who knows. There really isn't a whole lot of room in there to go much farther back, but he's pulling a bunch of G's. BTW, my friend, and very infrequent contributor to this site Mark (yea, another Mark) was there with his dad yesterday, but they left before the crash. I was watching the news last night, and some ignoramus was on Hannity, and said he couldn't believe they let these guys fly over the spectators! I wish I could have jumped through the screen, and choked the idiot. Frickin' talking heads! I don't know if you guys have seen all the videos, but something really weird happened with that aircraft for him to shoot up, go inverted, veer over toward the crowd, then veer back toward the ramp. Just really sad. That link I posted earlier is being constantly updated. I just read there is supposed to be a news conference soon. (12:45 PST) Mark Edit: Watching the news conference. They showed a photo that looks like the aircraft lost the trim tab off his elevator. THAT makes a lot of sense. Of course the NTSB will not speculate, but one look at that photo, and it makes your eyebrow go up. Oh, the death toll is up to 9, including the pilot. i56.tinypic.com/2mpam8l.jpg
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Post by Gene on Sept 18, 2011 5:42:25 GMT 9
my local radio station had an eyewitness account.. he said something about him getting caught in the propwash of 2 a/c in front of him... for what its worth... i'm sure the ntsb people will be all over it...theres already talk about how dangerous the sport is to the viewing public...
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Post by Bullhunter on Sept 18, 2011 7:04:24 GMT 9
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Post by Mark O on Sept 18, 2011 7:57:28 GMT 9
my local radio station had an eyewitness account.. he said something about him getting caught in the propwash of 2 a/c in front of him... for what its worth... i'm sure the ntsb people will be all over it...theres already talk about how dangerous the sport is to the viewing public... No way! That sounds like someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. Even the video doesn't show that. Watch this one. (There's some language in here, but not until after the crash.) As far as it being dangerous to the general public, I think that argument was sure to come up, but I don't buy it. This is the first time they've ever had this happen at Reno. Just a terrible - really terrible - freak accident. I just read about the other crash in WV. My first thought was it may have been one of those guys I saw this summer at the Abilene Air Fest, but I'm pretty sure it was a different set of guys. These are the ones I saw this summer. Mark
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Post by pat perry on Sept 18, 2011 8:05:06 GMT 9
Here's a email string I just received from some fighter pilots _____________________________________________ BB said: I agree with you on the trim tab stuff, GR. He was rounding the last pylon before the start/finish straight and would be pulling max Gs. Whatever caused it to pitchup, mechanical, heart attack (current physical, yes, but still 74 yr old) or whatever the sudden snap G increase could black him out (or kill him) but at any rate, I expect he was just a passenger at that point, despite the "trying to avoid the crowd" heroics they always put in. BB
GR said: Forwarded – One early theory. – Why, if the pilot was conscious and at the controls, would he have gone “straight-In” at full throttle? And why, trim tab or not, wouldn’t there be any sign of attempted pull-out or control? From the film that I saw, it appeared to go in like an arrow, with no deviation at all. I’m also skeptical of the “trim tabs straight down” comment. At the speeds they’re flying, you couldn’t hold it, if the trim tab could even stand the air loads. (Trim “straight down” wouldn’t likely be possible, but at any rate, if it was max down, that would be full nose-up trim and tough/impossible to control) -- GR
O'Brien said: O'Brien, who has been photographing the annual Air Races since 1973, said he and his brother, Brian, were shooting the race 300 yards from where the plane made impact.
“I saw him pull up, which they do in May Day situations, and I immediately pointed the camera on the plane,” O'Brien said. “It happened so fast. He was over us ... and then coming straight down.
“When they're racing, they set the trim tabs straight down. And if you look at the photo of the plane upside down. That slot on the tail, it's missing. When that came off, that caused the plane to pitch up violently. The plane went straight up and was still under full power. From what I saw, it torque-rolled and pointed down. It came straight down under full power. As soon as it crashed, there was a huge debris explosion, but fortunately no flames.” __________________________________________
I believe he had a problem (mechanical and/or physical) and blacked out in the pitch up. If he'd been conscious he would have throttled back as he was burning off speed in the pitch up and maybe regained some control.
I wonder if those guys wear G-suits? They do a lot of G's in those turns.
What a tragedy.
Pat P.
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Post by Jim on Sept 18, 2011 10:30:04 GMT 9
my local radio station had an eyewitness account.. he said something about him getting caught in the propwash of 2 a/c in front of him... for what its worth... i'm sure the ntsb people will be all over it...theres already talk about how dangerous the sport is to the viewing public... This from a witness who was in the pits: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Reno Races Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 17:17:14 -0700 (PDT) From: richard stultz To: Jim G <irishafone@q.com> <Sandy was in LA.I was in the pits, trying to get my video as they were really smoking.......Saw it....guy hit propwash already loaded up with Gs,,, probably took another 5+ Gs or negative, pulled up and was unable to pull her out.....question as the engine seemed to be still powered up! Looks like a few items around the tail empennage in stills so maybe a broken stab.... ? Gonna test the endurance of airshows....now we gotta fight for em. If that airplane had hit me in the crowd, I would have said, GOOD ONYA!! Keep em flyin.....just keep the kids further away. Dick Stultz This guy is better known to a lot of you as The TAZ
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Post by Jim on Sept 18, 2011 11:29:07 GMT 9
With the torque that engine has at full power-even without being able to increase rpm,and the loss of any control surface, that monster 4 bladed prop (almost 12 foot in dia.) will definitly rotate the a/c around the engine crankshaft. Also ,his climbing to get out of the race path for his MAYDay, he has already changed attitude... In one video I saw, the pilot was not visible.. Having flown into highspeed prop wash, it will definitely cause you control problems and brown shorts... It is very similar to encountering windshear and you can't see either one... With HIGH PERFORMANCE prop driven a/c, you don't see very many Diamond formation flybys for that reason...
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Post by Mark O on Sept 21, 2011 8:45:51 GMT 9
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Post by Gene on Sept 21, 2011 14:28:31 GMT 9
they said they shortened the wing by 5 feet....
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Post by Mark O on Sept 21, 2011 15:11:36 GMT 9
they said they shortened the wing by 5 feet.... Yea, they sliced and diced that ol' Mustang up with the singular goal of making her into a speed demon. Check out this interview with Jimmy Leeward. There's actually a longer version of this interview, but I can't find it right now. I guarantee every single engineer, mechanic, sheet metal worker, and who-knows-who else associated with that aircraft either has, or will be subpoenaed by the NTSB. Mark
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Post by oswald on Sept 21, 2011 23:48:51 GMT 9
Sounds like theres going to be something hitting the fan.
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Post by Jim on Sept 22, 2011 0:50:57 GMT 9
Sorry folks, but clipped wings are not the cause of this accident.. Clipped wings will not induce pitchup or roll for that matter.... When we were younger, we could withstand 6-7 gs easily, whether it was in an airplane or on a rollercoaster... This pilot was 74 years old, sure he passed his flight physical, but they don't measure your ability to handle high g loads, either positive or negative. Watching the video, just after pitchup and when he begins to roll, he is pulling in excess of 5 gs... We will never know if the pilot could have controlled the plane had he been visible in cockpit, in other words, conscious and not slumped over the stick forcing the plane into a severe nose down attitude... Ulta sound, magnaflux and xray are tools used by the AF to find and to prevent structural failures, doubt that these tools were used on this plane...... Having only 2 hours in a P-51, I know just enough to get in trouble, but the trim tabs on the elevators are placed under a large airload to reduce stick load for the pilot, making it easier to fly level.... Read the attached and ask any 106 pilot about elevon trim...... Subject: Fw: P-51 Reno Tragedy
This is from an AF friend who obviously has a source with some Reno race background... Curt, you may recall the 106 requirement for full nose down trim at high speed w/tanks. We noticed this chasing 105’s over in Korea... The following, I believe is a fairly accurate analysis of the loss of Leeland's loss of control of the P51 Galloping Ghost. It was written in a blog of comments.
This accident was caused by the failure of the left elevator trim tab. This exact same failure occurred to the P-51 Voodoo in the 1998 Reno race. That aircraft didn't roll inverted, but climbed up past 9,000 feet, where the pilot woke up.
… Voodoo very abruptly pulled up; however, Hannah didn’t radio a distress call. … Steve Hinton flew over to take a look Voodoo. “You OK Bob?” called Hinton. “Yea, this thing just popped big time,” replied Hannah. What Hannah didn’t mention is that the g-load from the quick pull-up had caused him to black out. He finally managed to reach the throttle and reduced Voodoo’s power. At that point Hannah radioed that he “(wasn’t) out of it yet,” but he wasn’t thinking clearly. Later, he declared a mayday and made a perfect landing. … On the ground one could see what cause Voodoo’s problems during the race. The left elevator torque tube failed when the elevator trim fluttered and departed the plane. Fortunately, Bob Hannah’s skill and coolness in the cockpit saved day.
When the trim tab fell off Voodoo, the plane shot upwards and the 10G deceleration force caused Bob Hannah to black out entirely. That’s just as you would expect: the faster you go, the more the plane points upwards on its own, and the more you need to point the nose down to trim the airplane. Thus, at speed and level, the trim tab points up relative to the airflow over the elevator, causing the elevator to be deflected slightly down to maintain level flight.
At over 500 miles per hour, there are enormous airloads on the elevator trim tab to keep the elevator in a position that allows the pilot to maintain control, making damage to the trim tab more likely. Remove the trim tab and the non-trimmed elevator settings immediately deflect up, just like when pulling the stick back hard. That’s what causes the abrupt climb (and corresponding loss of consciousness) when the trim tab falls off.
Hannah regained consciousness at 9,000 feet and, as you can tell from the above, took some time to come back to his senses. It was even the same trim tab. The difference between Voodoo’s close call and Galloping Ghost’s tragedy may have been pure, dumb luck: Voodoo didn’t roll after losing the trim tab while Galloping Ghost did.
But that doesn’t necessarily mean flutter caused the trim tab to dislodge, or that the trim tab was the cause of the accident, or that the trim tab was the only cause of the accident. It’s quite possible something else caused the Galloping Ghost to climb rapidly, and in that process the flutter developed or the trim tab was damaged. As has been reported, some members of the crowd noticed “a strange gurgling engine noise” before Galloping Ghost pitched upwards. Further, as discussed below, it’s possible the trim tab failure could have been avoided, and more could have been done — such as ensuring the pilot was harnessed properly and plotting the race further from the stands — to prevent this tragedy.
Aircraft like the P-51 Galloping Ghost, require a great deal of nose down trim to offset the lift which tends to force the nose up at high speeds (450 mph in this case). This trim setting places a great deal of stress on the trim tab and its hinges and mounting. If the tab should fail, the elevator will return to neutral, inducing an extremely violent pitch-up with zero warning. The associated g forces can incapacitate a pilot....
Notice that in some photos that Mr. Leeland is not visible in the photo. In other photos, he is clearly slumped against the instrument panel. If he can't see out, he can't know where the aircraft is pointed. Leeland is obviously unconscious, due to GLOC. GLOC is an acronym for G induced Loss Of Consciousness. Note also that the g loading was severe enough to overpower the hydraulic cylinder and extend the tail wheel.... My understanding is that it requires g loading in excess of 9g to do that. So, this is strong evidence that Leeland was subjected to g forces of at least 9g, and very likely higher than that. Any pilot, especially a 74-year old pilot, will GLOC under that loading. He was unconscious immediately after the pitch up and the aircraft went where it did due to factors like torque, aileron and rudder trim.
I believe that the NTSB will rule this accident a result of a catastrophic mechanical failure, probably resulting from undetected fatigue of the trim tab hardware and/or mounting structure.
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Post by Mark O on Sept 22, 2011 2:29:21 GMT 9
First thing I've read that actually makes sense Jim. Especially when compared to the previous incident. Thanks!
Mark
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Post by shadowgunner on Sept 22, 2011 6:16:27 GMT 9
Yesterday I talked to one of my former clients about this. They were not in the VIP seats this year Thank God. My friend said that when Jimmy made that last turn the tail made a sharp rapid downwards motion followed by a complete reversal then the plane went straight up. Probably also explains the tailwheel extension. In my friend's words " a sharp downward pop and back up" he figured jimmy had to have encountered between 12-14 G's because of that "pop" maneuver and if not GLOC'd then possibly KIA by the G's before he went vertical. He also said that they do carry black boxes and they use telelmetry systems during the races. So more will be discovered by NTSB. Revealing the info is another matter.
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Post by Jim on Sept 22, 2011 8:03:42 GMT 9
Notice anything strange in the side view? www2.leewardairranch.com/racing/galloping-ghost-specsand in this view www2.leewardairranch.com/racing/historyhere is the reason no airscoop:state-of-the-art boil-off cooling system.. Apparently uses hydrogen boiling off to cool the coolant, which might account for the vapor streaming off the wing to fuselage fillet on ther left wing in a couple of gallery photos on the top link. Nothing to do with the accident, just an observation..... They must of had problems with control air sliding off the ailerons, notice the fences top and bottom of the wing.... Those ailerons are not much bigger than some trim tabs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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