spectre
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Post by spectre on Nov 29, 2014 4:47:46 GMT 9
Hello to everyone,
What is the "absolute ceiling" for the F-106 Delta Dart?
Thanks very much,
Spectre
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Post by Jim on Nov 29, 2014 8:06:37 GMT 9
Hello to everyone, What is the "absolute ceiling" for the F-106 Delta Dart? Thanks very much, Spectre That info is in here someplace, posted by myself Jim (aka The Old Sarge) as a quote from Lt Col M Ross Shulmiser, flypapajohn or Lt. Col Stultz- all 3 high hour SIX drivers..... Click on my name and go to a big chunk of my postings. You will be surprised at the figure- in the vicinity of 60,000
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spectre
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Post by spectre on Nov 29, 2014 9:15:25 GMT 9
Jim,
For a computer simulation, if I made the absolute ceiling 60,000 ft. or 61,000 ft. that would be accurate? Trying to find the post . . .
Thanks,
Spectre
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Post by Jim on Nov 29, 2014 10:02:13 GMT 9
Jim, For a computer simulation, if I made the absolute ceiling 60,000 ft. or 61,000 ft. that would be accurate? Trying to find the post . . . Thanks, Spectre Here is one....... AJ Kelly notes no one asks about how high the '6 would fly. I can make only a few observations: 1. In ferry configuration (no weapons, full fuel and full externals), the '6 will gradually climb to 41,000 in full military power. As fuel burns off it will get up to slightly above 45,000 feet in level flight at full military power. It won't go much higher subsonic, because the indicated airspeed sits at max L/D – the bottom of the power curve. Once you can no longer maintain max L/D, you cannot continue to fly without adding power (and you're already at max power) or descending. You can read my "There I was..." post: www.f-106deltadart.com/thereiwas/ross-shulmister1.pdf2. I decided once to see how high I could go, cognizent of the risks of losing cabin pressure above 63,000 feet. [The altitude at which blood could boil is thought to be somewhere between 63,000 to 72,000 – it's not fixed, because blood pressure inside your vascular system would impede boiling to some extent above the 63,000 foot Armstrong Altitude – the altitude at which water will boil at body temperature. One also needs to be aware that any nitrogen in the blood could begin to come out of solution – i.e., you get the bends.] At any rate, the afterburner blew out around 50,000 - 52,000 feet and I coasted up to about 58,000 feet. Indicated airspeed was well below max L/D, and (as I recall) somewhere around 140 kts. The engine appeared to be still rotating but I think the fire went out around . . . I , maybe around 54,000 feet. I knew better than to put any pressure on the control surfaces. The bird gently fell picking up airspeed and the control surfaces began to become effective as I passed 48,000. I remember feeling relieved that the engine was putting out thrust about that time (I seem to recall an automatic re-ignition feature built in). Sure would have hated to have to explain an engine out landing . . . : I have no doubt it would have been possible to go much higher, by entering the climb while supersonic, and I suspect using that kind of tactic one could have made it up to 70,000 feet or higher. But the '6 would not have had significant maneuvering capability at those altitudes, so like going above Mach 2 – it's of little operational value. M. Ross Shulmister LtCol, USAF Retired 27th F.I.S. In 1962 at Loring AFB, Captains Valdez and Palouzzi, wearing the "moon suit" zoomed to almost 62,000 and had a hell of a ride till they got down to about 50,000 Go to MEMBERS and find Lt.Col M.Ross Shulmister and click on his most recent postings..... Also find flypapajohn and do the same pretty good info here..... The Old Sarge
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spectre
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Post by spectre on Nov 29, 2014 10:43:00 GMT 9
Thank you, Jim.
I have a PDF copy of the F-106 flight manual (I'm trying to find it).
Besides knowing the "service ceiling," and what altitude the F-106 can reach in a "zoom climb," I'm also interested in knowing the "absolute ceiling:"
"The absolute ceiling, also known as coffin corner, is the highest altitude at which an aircraft can sustain level flight, . . ." (from Wikipedia)
If you had to guess what the AC is, what would you say?
Also, if I find the F-106 manual, would the AC be in the manual?
Thanks,
Spectre
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Post by Jim on Nov 30, 2014 0:36:51 GMT 9
Spectre, I have fwded your inquiry to our resident Six driver....... The Old Sarge
1200 hrs 29 Nov... Spectre, here is Col Ross's reply. He uses the Cessna to point out that, in reality Absolute Ceiling is a bit of useless information and will vary by pilot and from serial# to serial#..... You can access all of his posts here....
That about covers it.
I have learned that manufacturers' manuals give statistics that are close to operational capabilities, but each bird is slightly different, and each pilot has a differing ability to coax the maximum performance.
For example, the Cessna 172S paperwork lists the service ceiling as 14,000 ft. Perhaps that's so at max gross weight, but you can't get to 14,000' at max gross weight because you'll burn off 6.4 gallons just getting to 12,000'. At 10° C (50° F) the rate of climb is a nominal 165 fpm, and that will decrease to about 60 fpm at 14,000' – assuming an average climb rate of 105 fpm, it will take another 20 minutes to get to 14,000' so you burn off perhaps another 2½ gallons, making the plane lighter so it will continue to climb. Cruising at 14,000' is perfectly reasonable, as long as one remembers it will take perhaps half an hour to get there. The highest I've ever been in the 172S is Flight Level 191 (19,100' – I was solo ... without me it probably could have gone higher Emoji). It just wouldn't go any higher (and that did wonders for my range – I think the descent at very low power took about 80 miles). At FL 191, I did raise some eyebrows down at Air Traffic Control ("Say again type of aircraft ... ").
Absolute ceiling is a function of the airplane's flight characteristics and the pilot's ability to fly at the edges of the performance envelope, and it changes with such factors as total weight and air density (which is a function of temperature and pressure), and configuration (which affects drag). Even maintenance status can affect performance (and engines perform slightly differently from each other).
As for the accuracy of the F-106 Dash-1, just read my posting about the Delta Dart's maximum endurance.
M. Ross
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spectre
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Post by spectre on Nov 30, 2014 5:36:26 GMT 9
Thank you, Col. Ross.
For an F-106 in a computer simulation, would it be better to go with, say, 59,000 ft. for the AC, or would it be better to make it higher? Right now I have it set to about 62,000 ft. But I wasn't sure if I should lower it a bit.
I understand that there really is no such thing as "the" absolute ceiling for an aircraft model. But for a computer sim, what would be the best number to use?
Thanks very much,
Spectre
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ah15
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Post by ah15 on Dec 7, 2014 13:28:14 GMT 9
Max altitude???, There I was and wished I hadn’t been. On a night exercise I had just reached my onstage position when we received the RTB call. I had lots and lots of fuel and I was returning to the notoriously short Hamilton Air Force Base runway landing to the south or ending up in the Bay for an overrun. They may training and experience to that date, I don't think I had exceeded Mach 1.4. As I accelerated through that Mach, the ramps started to schedule and acceleration seemed linear. The coastline was approaching embarrassingly quickly and no sooner had that observation registered, ATC cleared me to FL180. Sometimes wrong, never in doubt… I decided to use one of my favorite maneuvers and trade airspeed for altitude. The vertical tapes tagged that whatever number was close to 60 K. I was still 30-40 degrees nose up at about 1.4 -1.5. Too busy for great crosscheck...especially at night in a rather awkward attitude. I went to idle and rolled inverted for gentle but positive G assisted the parabolic arc. I saw a concave blue arc over a black sky at the 6, low. About this time, ATC cleared me to FL 180 (transponder OFF, OFF, OFF). Speed brakes were totally ineffective. I crossed the Northern California coast still at about Mach 1.2 and still in excess of something like FL500. Again, the speed brakes were a joke given the air density and there were no other options to increase drag. So, as the indicated airspeed was less than 250 knots, I put the gear down.I just checked a TAS/Mach/Altitude table and my memory of 232 knots IAS seems about correct Although the Space Shuttle was still a paper dream, I now see why the ’Six was a Shuttle emulator. With power off, gear down and speed brakes on, I had assumed the flight characteristics of a flat iron. Things were sorting himself out favorably until ATC cleared me to something like 8000 feet while I was still well up in the five digit altitudes. I don't remember the exact parameters of crossing the north approach end of the runway and I was very familiar with the deceptive 400-foot runway width. As the possibility of keeping my little adventurous indiscretion out of the exercise debriefing, I thought I might be able to pull it off. As I arched my feet vigorously, there was still hope that I would not need the hook until the right main tire blew… All of this may not be too improbable who flew with me and those who remember Lt. Col. Gomas letting me borrow the keys to the plane to fly to Minneapolis for my medical school interview. As an addition to audio-visual memorabilia, I have converted my home, front cockpit, handheld Super 8mm video to DVD. I hope to be able to find and bring it to C. Springs next year. The final cut premiered at my going away party and even Gen. Adams bought a copy. Addendum-My application to NASA while in my surgery residency was rejected even though I was qualified in final approach.
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Jim Scanlon (deceased)
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Post by Jim Scanlon (deceased) on Dec 7, 2014 23:41:26 GMT 9
Max altitude???, There I was and wished I hadn’t been. On a night exercise I had just reached my onstage position when we received the RTB call. I had lots and lots of fuel and I was returning to the notoriously short Hamilton Air Force Base runway landing to the south or ending up in the Bay for an overrun. They may training and experience to that date, I don't think I had exceeded Mach 1.4. As I accelerated through that Mach, the ramps started to schedule and acceleration seemed linear. The coastline was approaching embarrassingly quickly and no sooner had that observation registered, ATC cleared me to FL180. Sometimes wrong, never in doubt… I decided to use one of my favorite maneuvers and trade airspeed for altitude. The vertical tapes tagged that whatever number was close to 60 K. I was still 30-40 degrees nose up at about 1.4 -1.5. Too busy for great crosscheck...especially at night in a rather awkward attitude. I went to idle and rolled inverted for gentle but positive G assisted the parabolic arc. I saw a concave blue arc over a black sky at the 6, low. About this time, ATC cleared me to FL 180 (transponder OFF, OFF, OFF). Speed brakes were totally ineffective. I crossed the Northern California coast still at about Mach 1.2 and still in excess of something like FL500. Again, the speed brakes were a joke given the air density and there were no other options to increase drag. So, as the indicated airspeed was less than 250 knots, I put the gear down.I just checked a TAS/Mach/Altitude table and my memory of 232 knots IAS seems about correct Although the Space Shuttle was still a paper dream, I now see why the ’Six was a Shuttle emulator. With power off, gear down and speed brakes on, I had assumed the flight characteristics of a flat iron. Things were sorting himself out favorably until ATC cleared me to something like 8000 feet while I was still well up in the five digit altitudes. I don't remember the exact parameters of crossing the north approach end of the runway and I was very familiar with the deceptive 400-foot runway width. As the possibility of keeping my little adventurous indiscretion out of the exercise debriefing, I thought I might be able to pull it off. As I arched my feet vigorously, there was still hope that I would not need the hook until the right main tire blew… All of this may not be too improbable who flew with me and those who remember Lt. Col. Gomas letting me borrow the keys to the plane to fly to Minneapolis for my medical school interview. As an addition to audio-visual memorabilia, I have converted my home, front cockpit, handheld Super 8mm video to DVD. I hope to be able to find and bring it to C. Springs next year. The final cut premiered at my going away party and even Gen. Adams bought a copy. Addendum-My application to NASA while in my surgery residency was rejected even though I was qualified in final approach. Welcome to the Six Hanger and thank you for your flying story.
Hope to hear more of them from a Six Driver.
Jim Too
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spectre
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Post by spectre on Dec 8, 2014 4:51:42 GMT 9
I really enjoyed reading your story, Sir. Thank you very much for posting it.
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ah15
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Post by ah15 on Dec 9, 2014 10:39:18 GMT 9
I really enjoy still being here to report it.
GL
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Post by Jim on Dec 9, 2014 13:40:34 GMT 9
I really enjoy still being here to report it. GL SO ARE WE.............. The Old Sarge
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spectre
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Post by spectre on Dec 10, 2014 3:01:05 GMT 9
Sir,
Regarding the speed brakes on the F-106, I'm very interested to know how fast they would slow the fighter down at lower altitudes.
If the F-106 was going, say, 550 knots at sea level, and the speed brakes were opened, about how long would it take for the fighter to slow down to 350 knots?
Thanks,
Spectre
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Post by Jim on Dec 10, 2014 7:47:34 GMT 9
Sir, Regarding the speed brakes on the F-106, I'm very interested to know how fast they would slow the fighter down at lower altitudes. If the F-106 was going, say, 550 knots at sea level, and the speed brakes were opened, about how long would it take for the fighter to slow down to 350 knots? Thanks, Spectre Spectre, PLEASE stop and think for at least 30 seconds- how fast would your car traveling at 75 miles per hour slow down to 50 miles per hour- IF-, IF you didn't take your foot off the throttle?? Remember now, no a/c can fly at sea level without some sort of flotation device, and then it is only taxing in or out in an attempt to fly at sea level.. Each speed brake panel has approximately 6 sq.ft of surface (a comparison, a 4x8 sheet of plywood has 32 sq.ft) so you are attempting to push slightly more than 1/3 of a sheet of plywood out into the slipstream of 550 knots (indicated or true airspeed?). What makes you think that they will even extend at that airspeed??? Besides, why would you want to slow down WITHOUT reducing power? GUYS, listen to this grammar : "I'm very interested to know how fast they would slow the fighter down at lower altitudes." I would have said "I am interested in learning etc..... spectre, you have the dash one for the aircraft, why in hell don't you build your simulator around the printed info available, then fly your simulator within the parameters of the dash one. After all, even learning to fly the simulator will test your flying ability, and, luckily, it will survive all your crashes induced by your failure to fly by the book til you have several thousand hours in your machine... I had printed out most of Robyn's postings before we banned her and there are marked similarities...... Regret that we monitors have only the IP to gage whether we want to admit some one to our group or not, and I believe I was the one that accepted spectre........... It has been 50 years, but I was sure that the speed brakes would automatically retract above a certain airspeed... The Old Sarge
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Post by Mark O on Dec 10, 2014 15:43:58 GMT 9
Let's say I'm a global moderator... (Check.)
Let's say I'm on this forum at 130.0 Mbps... (Check.)
How long will it take me to ban an account?
Come on Spectre, we really love helping folks out, and passing on the history of the F-106, but I thought we were pretty clear. Please go back and read some of the previous posts.
Thanks,
Mark O
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spectre
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Post by spectre on Dec 11, 2014 2:47:09 GMT 9
I understand, Mark.
I will no loner post any questions regarding the F-106's performance on the forum.
P. S. I was on the forum years ago (the website used to be called "Pat's World"), but I have never used the username "Robyn."
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Post by Jim on Dec 11, 2014 7:57:07 GMT 9
I understand, Mark. I will no loner post any questions regarding the F-106's performance on the forum. P. S. I was on the forum years ago (the website used to be called "Pat's World"), but I have never used the username "Robyn." Spectre , Don't take this wrong, and don't disappear from the forum...... Robyn, who we have mentioned, was so bad with her inane, and sometimes asinine questions that she was doubting our answers, and actually insulting in her manner. When I provided you with sources for valid and extremely accurate flight data for the F- 106, you came back with questions that really had no valid applications to actually flying the F-106 or any other high performance aircraft..... The last dash one that I read was for the P-51D, and it had several warnings about attempting several maneuvers until you had accumulated at least 50 flight hours.... It didn't tell you why- it just said stay to hell away from them. I had only 3.5 hours, so I stayed to hell away from them- but not very far... But, if you are building a f-106 flying game and you have the dash one......Build it from the pilots instruction manual and design it to crash when you exceed those limits...... The Old Sarge
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