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Post by Mark O on Jul 17, 2013 6:43:47 GMT 9
From the web site "Jet Pilot Overseas" (although they post pics from all over the world!) Lt Col Eugene L. Surowiec preparing to leave for Alaska, and a shot of a couple Sixes with the 318th "Northern Star" tail art. jetpilotoverseas.wordpress.com/2013/04/26/f-106-pilot-lt-col-eugene-l-surowiec-of-498th-fis-mcchord-afb-1963/Which brings up a question I've asked before. I've seen so many references to the 498th FIS wearing that tail art on web sites. Is this just one of those confusions similar to the web sites that still claim 459 was the record setter? Those have to be 318th FIS birds. Don't they? Also, scroll down and read the comment about the "B" seat in the photo of Lt Col Surowiec. Interesting.
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Jim Scanlon (deceased)
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Post by Jim Scanlon (deceased) on Jul 17, 2013 7:43:38 GMT 9
I don't know what is so "rare" about the seat.
It is what was in every Six until they put in the modified Martin-Baker.
Jim Too
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Post by Diamondback on Jul 17, 2013 7:47:58 GMT 9
Could be, Mark--it might be that when they co-lo'ed with 318th they pooled birds and adopted similar markings with only crests to differ or something small like that. This from MOW's gallery is allegedly a 498th bird with a similar piece of art... f-106deltadart.com/photo_gallery/index.php/498th-FIS/590052We also know that when my grandfather served with them (about '65-'69ish) the Green Dragons were using a four-point design that looked a bit like a bird's foot in layout--so maybe the "Early Eight Point" was a 498th thing and when they disbanded the 318th merged some 498th traditions into their own? Just some conjecture that might or might not have been the case but seems logical through an armchair historian's eyes. Maybe Ernie White might have some better idea from an insider's eyes.
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Post by Mark O on Jul 17, 2013 8:04:43 GMT 9
I don't know what is so "rare" about the seat.
It is what was in every Six until they put in the modified Martin-Baker.
Jim Too I suppose the fact that the guy may not have seen a decent photo could be part of his comment. It is a pretty good shot, albeit posed!
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Post by MOW on Jul 17, 2013 10:25:50 GMT 9
I've seen so many references to the 498th FIS wearing that tail art on web sites. Is this just one of those confusions similar to the web sites that still claim 459 was the record setter? Those have to be 318th FIS birds. Don't they? The 498th FIS was at McChord AFB WA as a dual squadron with 318th FIS from 63 - 66 after a swap-out of F-106s with the 456th FIS from Castle AFB CA. That's when they probably adopted the 318th tail flash.
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Post by MOW on Jul 17, 2013 10:29:25 GMT 9
I don't know what is so "rare" about the seat.
It is what was in every Six until they put in the modified Martin-Baker.
Jim Too Yea, it was used for 10 years. Unless it's a reference to them all being sold for scrap and as a result becoming a rare collectors’ item.
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Post by sixerson on Nov 30, 2013 1:52:58 GMT 9
Hello Gents,
I have some info that may help clear up this issue. My dad, Denney Narog, flew with the 498th when they were co-located at McChord with the 318th in the '64-'65 time frame. He was involved with one deployment to Alaska where a pair of 318th and another pair of 498th planes were sent. He took numerous photos of that trip - in flight, over the Alaskan mountains and glaciers and on the ground at Galena.
He also took many photos of the ramp at McChord where both squadrons are captured as well as some in flight photos around Mt. Rainier. Included in his collection are his last formation flight where he is in the slot position. I believe some of his photos found their way onto Erv Smalley's site.
So, with all the photo evidence I have, the 498th had nothing - that's zip, zero, nada - tail flashes while at McChord. The 318th had their early polar star flash - the one that is similar to their final design - but much slimmer. I asked my dad why they (498th) had no tail flashes but he didn't recall the reason. Before the 498th moved to McChord from Geiger field in Spokane, they had a large Geiger Tiger on the tail. I think they must've gone through depot maintenance in between the two location and the fresh coat of aircraft gray just hadn't had a chance to be turned into a canvas.
After the 498th moved from McChord to Paine Field, they did get new tail art which consisted of a red, white and blue lightening bolt flash with a small Geiger Tiger above on the left side. You might recall this configuration is what they 84th had. That's because the 84th used the same flash but replaced the Geiger Tiger with their black panther when the 498th was inactivated and their planes turned over to the 84th. I suppose they may have received the red,white and blue paint before they move to Paine Field but I have never seen any photo evidence of that but I have seen the photos of them at Paine Field.
So, if you want to model a six with 498th colors, you can go with the big Geiger Tiger of Spokane days, plain Jane gray for McChord or you can steal the marking from the several decal sheets that depict the 84th but replace the panther with a Geiger Tiger. The Geiger Tiger will take a little custom artwork though.
Hope this helps solve this mystery. Mike
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Post by Jim on Nov 30, 2013 2:14:21 GMT 9
WELCOME BACK SIXERSON..................... MISSED YA.......... The Old Sarge
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Post by Mark O on Nov 30, 2013 7:41:00 GMT 9
Thanks for the info Mike, and I sort of figured that was the deal with the 498th, but not being there I was never certain. (It just made sense to me!) Really appreciate getting an insider's version of the story. By the way, if you come across any more of those hidden 498th photos (the pilots, the planes, the places, etc.), we all would love to see them! Cheers, Mark O
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Post by sixerson on Nov 30, 2013 7:41:43 GMT 9
Thanks Jim.
I've been hovering around the periphery for a few years - still watching and reading all the good stories. It's about time I reconnected properly though.
Mike
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Post by MOW on Nov 30, 2013 7:56:07 GMT 9
He also took many photos of the ramp at McChord where both squadrons are captured as well as some in flight photos around Mt. Rainier. Included in his collection are his last formation flight where he is in the slot position. Mike Welcome back Mike. I think the photo you're referring to is on the www.f-106deltadart.com/photo_gallery/index.php/498th-FIS page. If anyone has good enough eyes to see the other tail or Buzz numbers, please let me know so I can update the photo. I have it on both the 498th and 318th photo galleries.
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Post by MOW on Nov 30, 2013 7:58:31 GMT 9
Thanks for the info Mike, and I sort of figured that was the deal with the 498th, but not being there I was never certain. (It just made sense to me!) Really appreciate getting an insider's version of the story. By the way, if you come across any more of those hidden 498th photos (the pilots, the planes, the places, etc.), we all would love to see them! Cheers, Mark O DITTO! Would love to add your dad's collection to the photo gallery.
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Post by sixerson on Nov 30, 2013 10:04:54 GMT 9
You are right on. The color shot of 590022 is one of a series of that formation around the mountain and is the ship with my dad as pilot. I encouraged dad to send his slides to Sam Brandt some years ago to clean-up the images and I believe Sam sent them on to Erv and Pat so there could be others in the archives as well. I do have some hard copies of those as well as a squadron photo of all the pilots.
Incidentally, dad also flew the six with the 319th at Bunker Hill AFB (now Grissom AFB) in '61-'62 and the Deuce with the 59th in Goose Bay before getting back to the six with the 498th. Unfortunately, he has no pics of his time with the 319th but has a bunch of Goose Bay. He told me that Bunker Hill was a SAC base (B-58s) so they were pretty strict about taking photos around there.
Mike
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Post by sixfixer on Jan 6, 2014 5:06:52 GMT 9
Happy New Year All - After a short time away for the Six site and the forum (it's been a few months-way too much going on with my paid and no-pay jobs) I had a chance to check out some of the new additions to the site - the statement on the 498ths tailflash at McChord caught my eye. Let me add my 2 cents on the issue that should add some additional clarity. From my research and talks with folks over the years, I have to respectfully disagree with the statement that the 498th "never had tail flashes at McChord", from everything I have seen or heard, the "Tigers" actually did. As we know, during the transition from Geiger to McChord, the 498th swapped out their "57" model jets with the 456th FIS, gaining a majority of "59" models. This was accomplished to ensure the 325th FW had a more common fleet to assist in maintenance, training, and etc. After things "settled" down, the fleet was, once again, (slightly) reshuffled with the 318 & 498 swapping tails between the squadrons (with a majority of the ex 456 fleet being assigned to the 498). With this transition, some of the jets with the 318ths compass rose (aka northstar) tailflash ended up serving with the 498th, and some of the "new" Sixes served with the 318th. I would consider the tail flash one that was approved for both units of F-106s under the Wing (I haven't seen the design used for the 325ths T-33s). During this time, the 325 FW shield was applied to the left side of the aircraft (replacing the 318ths Green Dragon emblem on their jets) I would consider this another indication that the compass rose was truly a Wing tailflash during this era. From what I understand, no squadron insignias were applied to any McChord jets, except for the Sixes that participated in William Tell (from the 318), they were the only F-106's that wore squadron emblems during that period. A single design for an ADC Fighter Wing is not a rare for these units. In fact the during the latter F-94 days through the early F-102 days, aircraft assigned to 325th FW squadrons had their own unique designs, until another large addition of F-102's came into the fleet after the 317th FIS (personnel and equipment)moved to Alaska. After that, the 325th adopted the 318th design (Chrysler emblem) as the Wings design for the 318th and the newly assigned 64th FIS. They wore squadron emblems on "their" Duces. If I remember correctly, there is (was?) a AF reg that requires a squadron to wipe away their unique markings on a aircraft before it is reassigned to another unit (we saw in large effect in 1982 with the 318 F-106's), which would explain the lack of markings with the planes entering (and leaving) the McChord F-106 fleet and could address the lack of markings of the 325th's F-106's months before the transition of the 498th to Paine. During the Alaskan deployment you will defiantly see a large number of newly assigned 498th jets without tailflashes - you will also that the former 456 Sixes had armament placards in a higher position than the norm, this was to accommodate their former squadrons crew "swoosh" design. The stronger evidence I have is 3 pictures I'm including of F-106s that only served with the 498th at McChord (59-0009, 59-0131, & 59-0140). You will notice that they all with the "compass rose" and -009 & -0131 have 325th shields on the tails. >>> I also shot a e-mail out to "Mr ADC" Marty Isham to check my facts - I'll post his remarks once he responds. Hope this clears up the confusion ! Ernie
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Post by MOW on Jan 6, 2014 5:19:55 GMT 9
Happy New Year All - After a short time away for the Six site and the forum (it's been a few months-way too much going on with my paid and no-pay jobs) I had a chance to check out some of the new additions to the site - the statement on the 498ths tailflash at McChord caught my eye. Let me add my 2 cents on the issue that should add some additional clarity. From my research and talks with folks over the years, I have to respectfully disagree with the statement that the 498th "never had tail flashes at McChord", from everything I have seen or heard, the "Tigers" actually did. As we know, during the transition from Geiger to McChord, the 498th swapped out their "57" model jets with the 456th FIS, gaining a majority of "59" models. This was accomplished to ensure the 325th FW had a more common fleet to assist in maintenance, training, and etc. After things "settled" down, the fleet was, once again, (slightly) reshuffled with the 318 & 498 swapping tails between the squadrons (with a majority of the ex 456 fleet being assigned to the 498). With this transition, some of the jets with the 318ths compass rose (aka northstar) tailflash ended up serving with the 498th, and some of the "new" Sixes served with the 318th. I would consider the tail flash one that was approved for both units of F-106s under the Wing (I haven't seen the design used for the 325ths T-33s). During this time, the 325 FW shield was applied to the left side of the aircraft (replacing the 318ths Green Dragon emblem on their jets) I would consider this another indication that the compass rose was truly a Wing tailflash during this era. From what I understand, no squadron insignias were applied to any McChord jets, except for the Sixes that participated in William Tell (from the 318), they were the only F-106's that wore squadron emblems during that period. A single design for an ADC Fighter Wing is not a rare for these units. In fact the during the latter F-94 days through the early F-102 days, aircraft assigned to 325th FW squadrons had their own unique designs, until another large addition of F-102's came into the fleet after the 317th FIS (personnel and equipment)moved to Alaska. After that, the 325th adopted the 318th design (Chrysler emblem) as the Wings design for the 318th and the newly assigned 64th FIS. They wore squadron emblems on "their" Duces. If I remember correctly, there is (was?) a AF reg that requires a squadron to wipe away their unique markings on a aircraft before it is reassigned to another unit (we saw in large effect in 1982 with the 318 F-106's), which would explain the lack of markings with the planes entering (and leaving) the McChord F-106 fleet and could address the lack of markings of the 325th's F-106's months before the transition of the 498th to Paine. During the Alaskan deployment you will defiantly see a large number of newly assigned 498th jets without tailflashes - you will also that the former 456 Sixes had armament placards in a higher position than the norm, this was to accommodate their former squadrons crew "swoosh" design. The stronger evidence I have is 3 pictures I'm including of F-106s that only served with the 498th at McChord (59-0009, 59-0131, & 59-0140). You will notice that they all with the "compass rose" and -009 & -0131 have 325th shields on the tails. >>> I also shot a e-mail out to "Mr ADC" Marty Isham to check my facts - I'll post his remarks once he responds. Hope this clears up the confusion ! Ernie This is great info Ernie! I have some updating to do now on the site. Are these the best copies of the photos you have?
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Post by sixfixer on Jan 6, 2014 5:31:53 GMT 9
Thanks ! - - - Nope I have larger photos of -131 & -140 (-009 is from the site) - I tried to submit larger sizes, but the system through up an error - - do you want me to e-mail them to you ?
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Post by MOW on Jan 6, 2014 13:49:57 GMT 9
Got'm Ernie. See what I did to the 498th Photo Gallery with this info/pics and let me know what needs to be corrected etc. www.f-106deltadart.com/photo_gallery/index.php/498th-FISI see the error you talked about when uploading using the new Image Uploader. I uploaded these using the Add Attachments and seemed to work. I'll check the other plugin later.
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Post by Jim on Jan 7, 2014 0:23:53 GMT 9
If something can be 1000% better than something else, then "add attachment" beats the hell out of the Image uploader as far as quality goes. Proving that new isn't always better
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Post by MOW on Jan 7, 2014 5:20:32 GMT 9
Got'm Ernie. See what I did to the 498th Photo Gallery with this info/pics and let me know what needs to be corrected etc. www.f-106deltadart.com/photo_gallery/index.php/498th-FISI see the error you talked about when uploading using the new Image Uploader. I uploaded these using the Add Attachments and seemed to work. I'll check the other plugin later. If something can be 1000% better than something else, then "add attachment" beats the hell out of the Image uploader as far as quality goes. Proving that new isn't always better As an additional function to the Add Attachment function, it seems to have been working, at least as far as I've used it, up until Ernie mentioned an error. That might only be because of a particular file being uploaded I don't know. We'll see how this one looks. Ok, well there you have it... works like a charm and this is a fairly big file.
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Post by Mark O on Jan 7, 2014 13:14:36 GMT 9
Great stuff Ernie!! I have been wondering about that for quite some time!! Mark O
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