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Post by Jim on Oct 4, 2020 12:16:19 GMT 9
Another Pilot "I was there" story from Lt. Col. AJ Kelly.. More Memories! Probably talked about before, but I didn’t tell anyone these stories until years after I retired! So fresh in my mind, like yesterday… AJ
For the ‘Hell’ of it, I guess? Back in my day 1960 until 1962, when I was wearing a pressure suit on a weekly basis, we had a USAF Doctor jump out of a balloon at over 100,000 feet in a pressure suit, so maybe some one wanted to break a record? We have had people walking in space for years? My pressure suit was a ‘Partial Pressure’ suit, so only the head and lung area of the body were full pressure, while the arms and legs were just physically queezed hard! So, it was just a life saving suit if above 50,000 feet, meaning: you get the Hell down, ASAP. My suit was shipped to Germany in June 1962, but we didn’t use them there, so it was returned to the states, I guess? All F-106 (and, A-12, SR-71, etc) units started getting full pressure suits in 1963. When I got back in 1966, pressure suits were not standard issue anymore! In a F-102, I had a flameout @ 58,000+ when I fired a missile in 1968 at a BOMARC missile target, and got a manual (automatic did not work) re-light after I got the machine pointed downward. In the F102, F101, & F106 we breathed 100% pressure oxygen before takeoff, and until we got back below 18,000 feet in a descent. In other fighters is was selectable, but normally not, just mixed oxygen. Flying in a pressure suit is rather exhausting, but I am told the modern ones are not quite as bad? The F-106 was the first fighter to have emergency cockpit pressurization, and also the first to have a digital fire control system. I had that aircraft out to Mach 2.5 only one time on a test hop (normally stopped at Mach One)! And, on another flight where I was cruising 55,000 @ 1.5 Mach in minimum afterburner (acting as a target in a pressure suit) as Hoquiam came into view, I pushed the nose down slightly & advanced the throttle to full A/B, the speed went to Mach 2 quickly, I then pulled the nose up to more than 60 degrees! And, then waited at that angle, the G forces are less than half a G, and when the A/B began to pulse, I came out of burner, and began a slight push over at barely any G-force (just enough so the engine oil is not losing pressure)! The digital altimeter stopped working at 80,000, so have no idea how high I went, I never went subsonic, and it was a long way down to 50,000 feet. That was my personal best in any aircraft. In my training in a pressure chamber, I did reach 141,000 feet, in pressure burst from 41,000 feet. Gets hot going up, and very cold coming down! Memories!
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Post by LBer1568 on Oct 5, 2020 2:40:43 GMT 9
I guess they don't really need any space since the 318th deactivated years ago. They were replaced with some Special Ops Organizations as I remember. But the main units now are Combat Controllers aren't they? Last I knew they were part of Special Ops Command, but part of 62 Airlift Wing. They don't have C-130 Squadron anymore do they? Just C-17.
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biendhoa
F-106 Expert
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Post by biendhoa on Oct 6, 2020 3:47:16 GMT 9
Emergency cockpit pressurization ? Never heard of it ,I was at Tyndall from Aug 59 thru Dec 68 was in mechanical accessories work center (NCOIC) thought I knew the F-106A and B system as well as anyone. Guess I was wrong. JAY. (biendhoa).
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Post by LBer1568 on Oct 6, 2020 11:32:22 GMT 9
I guess I am nit picking, but I worked MA-1 on F-106 for 8 years and heard a lot of pilots talk about many of the Six's capability. I would have to disagree with our superman author about taking a six beyond 80,000 feet after digital altimeter stopped. First off, we didn't have a digital altimeter. We did have analog altimeters and in a six with vertical instruments gave numerical readout as well as standard and standby altimeters. I worked aircrew debriefing for about a year and talked to a lot of pilots, including several in Test Sq who worked the F-106 at Edwards early on. I remember talking about the speed and altitude capabilities of six. I remember at McGuire we were having exercises with B-52's coming down from Canada at 45,000-50,000 feet. One day our sixes were taking off before alert horn sounded. They flew up to 40,000 feet and went full burner to mach 2 then did a pop up to 55-60 000 feet and came out of burner. Their comments were it was hard to maintain level flight at 60,000 and couldn't light burner that high up. But they sure surprised the Buff drivers when they told them they were dead and B-52 was looking for them at lower altitudes. I would also question his taking the six to Mach 2.3. I helped check out the big COMM/TACAN Mod on sixes at Tyndall and went up in many FCF in back seat doing all of the Comm and TACAN tests on new equipment. Every FCF also required a high speed run and we could usually get 2.2 but it had to have a pretty high engine trim to see the 2.2+. But I can tell you that getting the F-106B Model up to mach2.2+ used a chit load of gas, so we did that run right before turning to base and letting gravity bring us back without going below fuel minimums. He also claims he was "In a F-102, I had a flameout @ 58,000+ when I fired a missile in 1968 at a BOMARC missile target." The reason we replaced the F-102 in Alaska with F-106 was the duece couldn't get above 45-50,000 to challenge the Russian Bears. In the 1968-1970 time period I worked with the Test Sq at Tyndall on the BOMARC test program. We had several BOMARCs launched over Gulf and we usually had 3-4 Fighters along it's route to try to intercept. The duece was not one of them. In the six with a really good day and top RADAR system the pilot would be on a frontal attack and if he could see missile at max range for lock on-28 miles he could get a lock on and fire missile. Since the six was usually flying about .93 mach and BOMARG was at about mach 1.5+ the six had less than 15 seconds to get lock on, then the MA-1 used 4-7 seconds to count down and launch missile. By this time the BOMARC was usually in front of six as it went sailing past. We did claim one hit in about 10 flights and program ended as the century series was nearly impossible to intercept and kill a BOMARC. We tried stern attacks, but was not realistic because we would never get launch info in time to launch six, get it to 40,000 and in position to follow missile and shoot down with IR missile. So I would also question the claim that he cruised at 50,000 in burner. And when he described his lighting burner and going up to 80,000 is complete nonsense. All one has to do is go to F-106 -1 and look at chart for burner range. The afterburner requires a lot of Oxygen to produce the thrust and it just doesn't work in a Six. But the six was a lot better than other century series fighters. So he can tell that to all the folks gathered around him in O'club and make all kinds of claims...but that don't make it so. Remember the saying in early baseball, "Say it ain't so Joe"!. Lorin PS, At McGuire we had SAGE building, a six squadron, 539th and a BOMARC site. We also had the only Nuclear accident when a BOMARC caught fire in shelter and melted nuclear materials and then fire department spread the radioactive materials all over area with water spray. It took forever to clean up the "fallout." The BOMARC and the Genie were both the solution to intercept a squadron of Russian bombers as they came close to USA.
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Post by LBer1568 on Oct 6, 2020 12:07:50 GMT 9
Jay, I was one of the MA-1 guys you always had remove our "Coffin" rack (Between missile rails) so you could change water separator. I was at Tyndall from 67-Jan 71 except for the six months we got to go help 318th at Osan Korea. I was on mobility team and about 20 of us went over to augment the 318 maintenance guys. Lorin
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Post by Jim on Oct 6, 2020 13:13:57 GMT 9
Emergency cockpit pressurization ? Never heard of it ,I was at Tyndall from Aug 59 thru Dec 68 was in mechanical accessories work center (NCOIC) thought I knew the F-106A and B system as well as anyone. Guess I was wrong. JAY. (biendhoa).
In the F-102, if the engine flamed out, the canopy seals deflated because the pressure source was the high pressure from the engine, and it was very rapid, I can attest… Thus, when I flamed out at 58,000 feet at missile launch, and then got a relight/air start a few moments later, the cockpit pressure had gone almost to my actual altitude, and when the cabin pressure came BACK, it seemed like my head was going to blow off. Sever pressure change difference in a hurry is really very uncomfortable! However, in the F-106 (with a very similar designed systems) there was a backup valve that allowed high pressure air from the 3000PSI air bottles (used for armament actuation and emergency brakes/gear extension, etc) to provide high pressure air to be metered to provide canopy seal pressure, as well as cockpit pressure for a short time until it was depleted or the engine was restarted. And , it worked like a ‘champ’ when I had a flame-out on my very first FCF at 50,000 feet when the throttle was reduced to idle. And, the engine would not relight until I got down to about 30,000 feet, when I had the throttle at the full military position. By then, the entire MA-1 Fire Control System had crap itself to death (maintenance called that a “DUMP”), I had no radio (or any other fun things) and when I appeared in the pattern at McChord ‘rocking’ my wings on INTIAL, I guess there was a big CHEER from the ‘Peanut Gallery’ of the 318FIS. That particular engine was shipped out to DEPOT, and after remaining in the system for some time, it caused a F-106 aircraft lost a year or so later. NOTE: It took a few more years to discover why several J-75 engines were coming from depot maintenance ‘Unbalanced’ like that one was! Tell that story later! What I learned was: “If your feet feel like they are asleep on the rudder pedals during climb at full power, but are fine when off the rudder pedals, go RTB ASAP! That is true for the J-57 also, and I lived to tell the stories! Probably a good idea with any air machine… That’s the TRUTH TOO… A.J. Kelly
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Post by LBer1568 on Oct 7, 2020 0:09:16 GMT 9
F-102 Performance: Maximum speed: 825 mph at 35,000 feet (Mach 1.25). Initial climb rate: 13,000 feet per minute. An altitude of 51,800 feet could be attained in 9.9 minutes. Combat ceiling was 51,800 feet and service ceiling was 53,400 feet. Maximum range was 1350 miles.
In the event that the F-106 lost engine, no AC/DC power was generated therefore MA-1 was not battery powered so just like any electrical equipment, when you pull the power it doesn't work. But the F-106 had a Ram Air Turbine (RAT) that could easily be deployed and would provide Emergency DC power and Hydraulics enough to operate flight controls and gear and emergency DC power for instruments essential systems. Not being nasty, but over time we all remember things the way we wanted them, not necessarily how they actually happened. Jim usually says 'Ya right" when we come up with war stories, even if they were based upon facts. LOL Off we go into the wild blue yonder.
Lorin
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Post by Jim on Oct 7, 2020 3:22:26 GMT 9
F-102 Performance: Maximum speed: 825 mph at 35,000 feet (Mach 1.25). Initial climb rate: 13,000 feet per minute. An altitude of 51,800 feet could be attained in 9.9 minutes. Combat ceiling was 51,800 feet and service ceiling was 53,400 feet. Maximum range was 1350 miles. In the event that the F-106 lost engine, no AC/DC power was generated therefore MA-1 was not battery powered so just like any electrical equipment, when you pull the power it doesn't work. But the F-106 had a Ram Air Turbine (RAT) that could easily be deployed and would provide Emergency DC power and Hydraulics enough to operate flight controls and gear and emergency DC power for instruments essential systems. Not being nasty, but over time we all remember things the way we wanted them, not necessarily how they actually happened. Jim usually says 'Ya right" when we come up with war stories, even if they were based upon facts. LOL Off we go into the wild blue yonder. Lorin Jim usually says 'Ya right" when we come up with war stories, even if they were based upon facts... You a democrat taking things out of context? Just went back through over 250 posts and didn't find a single "YA RIGHT" comment.... Every "Tall Tale", whether yours, OR mine have some basis in fact. I have always said what I meant- so if it was a bullshit tale, that is exactly what I said. Also, you need to remember, all figures quoted in the dash-1 are typical, not binding- except for dedicated limits. Fact- the 27th FIS (at Griffis) had 3 TUBS; each one crapped out at different airspeeds and altitudes. In fact the first one I flew in to get my mach 1 pin, we had to go into a shallow dive because it couldn't do it in level flight. Flying in a 3 TUB formation, each wingman was flying with a different power setting to keep up with the lead, 3 "identical" a/c, yet 3 different power settings to maintain the same airspeed. BTW, the Deuce also had a RAT, for the same purpose. Even my "OLD" J3 Flight Manual had specifications, that were more like ranges of performance rather than specifics. So using generalities to refute some one's statement doesn't make their statement wrong, no matter how far fetched you think it might be. What was the "maximum" airspeed in the Dash 1 for the Six? What was the airspeed attained by Major Rogers on each of his runs? Believe they were in excess of the Dash 1 specifications..... Finally got you to hell off the LIKE button........... BTW, that same a/c later that year gained 19 mph, but 1523 is listed as max speed.
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Post by Jim on Oct 7, 2020 3:25:34 GMT 9
OK,,,I'm just wondering who is the oldest old timer in here ? I know its not me. Believe biendhoa (Jay) is. I turned 86 in August, with 25 years, 5 months and 16 days service.......
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Post by LBer1568 on Oct 7, 2020 5:46:22 GMT 9
Jim, I remember talking to some old timers who helped get the six's ready for the speed trials. Special paint job and heavy wax job. They also put supersonic tape over a lot of the zues fasteners. Ask Gary about up tuning the engines. You can gain a lot of speed if the A/B is pumping more. So even though the original bird, 059 I think, couldn't make the flight the replacement had some of the same high speed preparations. And yes depending on altitude, temps, winds etc a six could turn in some fast times even as they got older. 'When we were doing the FCF flights after the major mod for new UHF/TACAN and refueling probes at Tyndall the bird required a full FCF including run to mach 2.2 as we returned from FCF. I actually got the pleasure of driving a six to trim pad at McGuire. Since I worked both alert and mid shift a lot I got a engine run and taxi license. I didn't even tell them at Tyndall that I had one when I transferred down. Lorin
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Post by LBer1568 on Oct 7, 2020 5:48:40 GMT 9
Gary, I am old but still have a foot out of the grave. I turned 76 on forth of July this year. AS my kids say "Dirt...older than dirt". Lorin
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Post by LBer1568 on Oct 7, 2020 6:30:22 GMT 9
While I was logging on I remember a crash while I was at RAF Upper Heyford. I was working swing shift one night and I was spelling a younger Airman as he got his dinner. So here I was working the F-111E Simulator console while an alert crew performed their mission It was an alert crew flying the line they were setting on alert. All of our crews had to be current for the alert mission they were setting. They had to bring a brick with them from Alert Shack and they left it on console for me to monitor. Alert crews flew their missions, but didn't fly with motion as it would slow them down if recalled to alert shack. As I was drinking a coffee and providing them mission info as they flew the brick came to life and started talking about an F-4 crashing on final. I got on intercom and briefed the crew and they said continue to monitor. Well I heard most of the conversations as I had the prime radio (Brick) for all mission essential people. Seems the F-4 failed to reset altimeter and did a great touchdown, just 1000 yards early. They were seen crashing into farmers field and the local police and base crash recovery were searching the field, not finding the wreckage. Then I heard a frantic air policeman saying he had the local police station saying they had the pilot on public phone near the base. So everyone drove towards the phone box. Yes, the red British phone booth. Well the pilot then got in crash vehicle and instructed them into field where they ended up. Seems the pilot realized his mistake at the last minute and did a hard pull up and applied power. The F-4 lifted up enough to clear the fence row of field and came back down into the next field where it was when they returned. The GIB (Buy in back) was sitting next to airplane and it was still on landing gear. So the next day they took Big Bertha (Crash recovery crane) into the field and lifted it onto a flatbed for transport to parking ramp. So long story short the GIB had blown his canopy when they were airborne between fields.. Pilot never considered bailing out. So they restored the rear canopy and cleaned the mud off landing gears and went through maintenance checks of gear and engines. The F-4 flew back to Bentwaters AB a week later, with a different crew. The crash turned into a ground incident and crew was disqualified and required retraining on properly sitting the altimeter baro pressure. These pictures were added to local newspaper to reflect the gallant pilots story. The local press had a lot of F-111 pictures so they used them instead of the F-4.
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biendhoa
F-106 Expert
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Post by biendhoa on Oct 7, 2020 7:06:06 GMT 9
Yep turned 86 3/8/34
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Post by pat perry on Oct 7, 2020 23:45:14 GMT 9
Yep turned 86 3/8/34 Jay, I'm 74 2/20/46.
I worked first in Corrosion Control (paint shop) on the F-106 then took USAFI courses and transferred to M.A.R.S (Environmental Control Systems).
Really liked both career fields until I had to change a cracked heat exchanger in a B Model. I figured that Convair must have suspended the heat exchanger from a ceiling wire and built the aircraft around it.
I never got a F-106 ride but did two C-130 Blind Bat missions out of Ubon kicking flares out the back door over the Ho Chi Minh trail at 10,000 feet with the doors open and low red lights. Also was a spotter for AAA and there was a lot of it. Four spotters were intercommed to the AC and reported close calls and he would take evasive action. Hard turns, ups & downs, lots of +/- G's, Zero degrees and sweating like a hog. Hypoxia and nausea was common. We all contributed to the puke can garbage barrels. The ground spotter motioned me over to his night scope to look and there was some enemy taking a smoke break. When we lit up the sky with 22 million candle power magnesium flares the Spads would bomb the convoys.
After 4 hours, it was nice when we finished the mission, closed the doors, turned on cabin pressure, and RTB. When we got back to Ubon it was "Bot Beer Happy Hour" at the Airmen's Club the next day. Us ground launch crew guys and mission volunteers ordered 100 beers and the stories were "embellished" to fit the occasion. After the second mission I asked the ECM guy how many missiles we avoided, he said 110. I took his word for it.
I gained tremendous respect for the air crew guys who did Blind Bat missions several times a week.
Pat P.
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Bullhunter
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318th FIS Jet Shop 1975-78
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Post by Bullhunter on Oct 8, 2020 0:03:33 GMT 9
Yep turned 86 3/8/34 Wow, you and Jim surely have lots of history behind you both and I bet you have seen lots of history pass by. Take care & God Bless !
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Bullhunter
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Post by Bullhunter on Jan 31, 2021 4:32:36 GMT 9
I remember in 1974 I was sent from Griffiss AFB, NY to Minot AFB, ND to work on one of our B-52's that was there on EWO (Emergency War Order) Alert. Before we departed they issued us artic gear (Parka, Pants, Bunny Boots). I asked how cold does in get at Minot in winter. The reply was damn cold. We flew there in a KC-135 and after we landed and taxied to our spot the door was opened. A guy came onto the aircraft and said, "The wind chill is minus 52 and don't touch anything with bare hands." The wind was howling and the snow was flying sideways, you could not see more than 25-30 feet. I knew then why that artic suit issue. Got my tool box and artic gear and was taken to the EWO Alert Mole Hole for lunch. Got in a maintenance van and we were taken to the B-52G. On the way I asked if the hanger was heated and the driver and other Minot guys started laughing. The driver said this is an EWO aircraft with loaded with nukes in a highly restricted area outside. What a job to change the CSD & Generator. We had 3 BTU-400 heaters. One on our feet, one on our hands and working area, and one for the truck. We had to take brakes in the truck often because of the cold. An hour and a half job took about 3 hours in those weather conditions. There were othe EWO aircraft around, but I could not see them because of the blowing snow. I was the only volunteer jet engine troop for that mission and another person was picked from the electric shop. I never want to feel that chilling weather again!!!! I was thinking how nice ADC had it with their Alert Barns. My nest assignment was ADC with the 318th FIS at McChord AFB, WA. This is an internet photo. Weather that day was a bit worse as we could not see the other aircraft.
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