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Post by pat perry on Feb 21, 2014 8:02:47 GMT 9
All, Here's some interesting thoughts from Doug about the tie in between NORAD, NIKES, BOMARCS, ADC..... See below... You can respond directly to Doug. dcbrb@yahoo.com Bobski
From: dcbrb@yahoo.com Sent: 2/20/2014 1:56:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time Subj: Co-ordination?
Just got to wondering how much co-ordination (if any) there was between the ADC radar sites / command & control / Interceptor forces / and the Army Nike folks back in the day? Or the Bomarcs for that matter? Obviously, they were all part of NORAD, but I am wondering just how deep the connection was - HQ only or did it go a lot farther down the chain?
Did the Nike sites play in the NORAD Air Defense exercises? Were there geographically defined coverage areas where the Interceptors covered on location & the Nikes covered another? What interaction(s) were there at all between the two sides? Thinking here of how the Germans in WW2 co-ordinated between the flak batteries and fighters and PVO Strany in the Soviet Air Defenses. Or did our guys just sort of each go their own way? Does anyone know, or can you think of someone I could talk to who might know the answers?
I know that the Voodoos got advance notice of (some) B-58 flights in order to practice high altitude (snap up) intercepts on them & have heard that the Nike sites were sometimes given advance warning of SR-71 flights within their coverage areas but that is the extent of my knowledge.
Your brain teaser for the day.... Doug
PS: I think Doug is writing a book?! Let's help him. Pat P.
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Post by Mark O on Feb 21, 2014 15:26:48 GMT 9
Hey Pat P., This is the first place I thought of that would probably have the information he is looking for. LOTS of great info! One could spend HOURS on this site. (I know I have!) www.radomes.org/museum/Scroll down the menu on the left side of the page for individual pages on all of the items he mentioned. Hope this helps, Mark O.
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Post by LBer1568 on Feb 22, 2014 2:59:56 GMT 9
I was stationed at McGuire AFB NJ as my first operational assignment out of tech school (Lowry) for MA-1. McGuire was unique as it was the first base to receive the F-106, and it also co-hosted the first SAGE Site. We had 3 ADC Units back then. The 539th, the SAGE/21 Air Division and a BOMARC site off base. All three groups shared 2 3-story dorms next to the Chow Hall and just down the street from NCO Club. We walked past the SAGE building on way to flight line. As a shared resource center we had cookouts with all three units outside our Dorm. So we , the young enlisted folks, co-habited with all the 21 Air Division troops. But very little interface occurred at the work level as we all had different sites. The BOMARC Site was a few miles off base on road to Beach. The 21 AD had a facility that was originally a dorm, converted to office spaces. And SAGE was self contained as well as 539th. We were located towards the end of flight line with SAC's EC-121 Squadron next to us and last outfit on flight line. I did get to tour the SAGE and BOMARC Sties during my first year on base. The FTD folks coordinated it as they had classes for all three groups in same building. The SAGE Computer was a large tube digital computer while MA-1 was a miniature tube digital computer until we upgraded to the Hughes Computing Machine (HCM) 250. I don't remember what controlled BOMARC even though I got a formal briefing on it, but that was in 1964. Lorin
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Post by pat perry on Feb 25, 2014 1:18:41 GMT 9
Pat, Bruce Gordon at his best! Bobski
From: brugor@mac.com To: Bobski9933@aol.com Sent: 2/21/2014 11:30:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time Subj: Re: NORAD, BOMARC, ADC, Co-ordination?
I have five events with NIKE to report:
1. I flew target for NIKE, in Alaska, 1962, in a T-33. It was a live firing from their site near Fairbanks. The Nike went up to about 60,000 feet, then dove down, exploding about a mile off my right wing. This was called the "offset", the computer aimed at a point off my wing. I could see the contrail of the NIKE.
2. NIKE had a live firing from the site on the mountain near Anchorage, Alaska, in 1963. I flew an F-102 and again the missile exploded off my right wing. I tried to use my F-102 radar to detect the NIKE, but I did not detect it. I only saw its contrail and the explosion a mile off my right wing.
3. The NIKE firings were good public relations for the Army and Air Force, so they had them broadcast live on commercial radio so the people could watch the launch on the mountain above Anchorage. This had a humorous result when the regular target had a ground abort, and the NIKE launch control contacted a T-33 which was inbound. On live Anchorage radio, they asked the incoming T-33 if he had enough fuel for a half-hour extra mission. "What mission?" asked the T-33. "We want to use you as a target for a live NIKE firing, with an offset". Long pause. "What's this 'OFFSET' crap?" asked the T-33!
4. I transitioned into the F-106 and in 1967 I was back in Alaska, flying from the same bases, but now in the F-106. NIKE asked for supersonic target for a live launch with offset. I knew the routine, so I volunteered. I flew a distance from Fairbanks, turned inbound and accelerated to about Mach 1.4. The NIKE site was tracking me, but then broke lock and could not fire. I turned around and went back, repeating the process, and came in again, this time subsonic at Mach 0.93. This time they tracked me OK and fired the missile, which I could not detect on radar, but which I saw the contrail and it exploded off my right wing.
5. Flying out of Selfridge AFB, north of Detroit, Michigan, on a big exercise. I was circling somewhere in northern Michigan, waiting for the target aircraft to appear, when I was called on the radio and told to return to the base and land -- I had been "shot down by NIKE". With friends like that, who needs enemies??
BTW -- my book, "THE SPIRIT OF ATTACK", was published at the end of January and is now available both in hard copy and in e-book format on Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble (BN.com), AuthorHouse.com, and other online retailers. If you buy one and read it, PLEASE POST A REVIEW. I need some reviews of the new book! It has about 40 flying events and 90 photos, but these NIKE stories are not included...
Bruce Gordon=
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Post by pat perry on Feb 25, 2014 1:44:13 GMT 9
This from Dan Haney via Bobski.
I know the 460 at Kingsley, KFalls OR, got to fire at annual squadron qual @ Tyndall, had to be '71 we got a BomArc B at 95K, prebriefed AIm #1, MB-1 #2 (me), AIm #3, don't recall if that was the schedule or a #4 aborted. Our birds were good then so probly just the 3 for spacing. we did a SS racetrack CCW while they counted down at Biloxi, finally gave a countdown and we lit up, #1 fired and got area score later, I stored energy and descended to 42 on attack heading and started up just below 1.8M, buried dot and watched the blivet go off in front of the target which looked big as a house, saw the cable bundle and the flash and started rollover but noticed sky black ( noon ) w stars, also saw the river at Brownsville around E to end of Fla peninsula but also noticed flicker on EPR so cut burner and added back pressure at 90.7 K. Inverted. Damn, loved the Six. Dan Haney
PS, opinion on original question ? We were expendable, may have been a symbol on someone's screen if we'd already fired out in a real-time scenario and only had Ram left. As Rosco Turner observed previously in SEA, " if you can't take a joke you shouldn't have signed up". With a weapon or 2 left we were an asset.
Pat P. says: I'm glad Bobski captured this exciting email from Dan Haney on a PDF list of other emails already posted on this forum thread. Something tells me Dan has a lot of other stories to share and we invite him to share them here on the forum.
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Post by pat perry on Feb 25, 2014 8:34:48 GMT 9
Thanks Fennie. Bobski In a message dated 2/24/2014 12:30:11 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mrfennie@verizon.net writes: I was a SAGE weenie at Duluth and participated in many exercises during 61 to 65 with all the below but have no specific input. Nike personnel worked side by side us in the Combat Operation & Weapons Control Center daily.
I do remember we always seem to miss the boat when the Hustlers came screaming out of Bunker Hill & Carswell, it was difficult getting a track lock on for accurate data input due to their high speed ability to out run our manual data and mapping inputs capabilities. The following day RBS reports were more accurate and better equipped against those high speed and low level runs for accurate ID.
I have heard F-106’s intercepting SR’s at greater altitude than originally designed to do. I agree that SAGE and the fighter community were not so friendly during duty or off duty in those days, Vietnam changed that relationship. I plan to buy Bob’s book soon because I am a F-106 junkie.
F. Reese, DUADS(Duluth Air Defense Sector) Ret Chief
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Post by Mark O on Feb 25, 2014 15:56:31 GMT 9
Great stuff Pat P.! I appreciate you posting that feedback regarding the original question, and it has got me poking around reading more about it. If anyone is interested this is a very good, eight-page .pdf file called "Ring of Fire" about the Nike missiles, and this is just one item from the fantastic site "radomes.org." I could read this stuff for days! www.radomes.org/museum/documents/NIKE-RingofFire.pdfThanks again! Mark O.
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Post by pat perry on Mar 5, 2014 9:23:54 GMT 9
From Bobski - Pat P.
All F106 Guys, Bob England passed this interesting bit information regarding Nikes & Bomarcs. Thanks Bob! You can comment to him directly, or I'm sure Pat Perry will put this on the F106 website. Bobski
From: robtengl@yahoo.com To: bobski9933@aol.com, robtengl@yahoo.com Sent: 3/3/2014 1:13:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time Subj: Nike,Bomarc,etc
Dear "bobski9933",
Bill Gawler is a high-school classmate, and he copied me on a PDF file from you. A not sure of his relationship to you, but here goes:
The PDF referenced Nike Hercules and Bomarc. If you have any questions ref these missiles, I can surely answer them since I was on the military team that designed the IFC (Integrated Fire Control) components which controlled the Hercules flight path and the nuclear (or conventional explosive) warhead detonation at intercept time. In particular, a small group of eight (8) of us redesigned the two computers to guide the Hercules and send the "burst" command. I was rank SP6 (grade E6, rapid promotion) for over three (3) years in the Army.
After college, I worked for IBM before enlisting in the Army and as fate would intervene, an IBM classmate of mine became overall team manager for development of the SAGE (Semi Automatic Ground Environment) computer in 1959. When I left active duty, I joined the IBM SAGE team working for DOD in the Pentagon and this team wrote all the SAGE software. SAGE ended up with twenty-seven (27) nationwide sites, and had the capability of ordering either a Bomarc or Hercules launch.
On the side, we now have three (3) National Historical Sites for Hercules, open to the public with IFC and launcher areas and volunteers to explain the whole complex. Also, SAGE pieces are on display in many museums including the Smithsonian.
My friends call me the "cold-war guru" since I have gathered hundreds of missile related videos, was on Johnson Island for seven months of Operation Dominic, and was in the IFC control van (computer position) for over 250 Hercules launches in WSMR, Anchorage,Fairbanks,Hawaii,Turkey,and Sicily.
Let me know if you would like to "chew the rag" - but I want to emphasize that I claim no honors for my activities. Everything was done "by the team", and those of us who are still alive know the history of all the Nike sites, the "almost" strike against Cuba counted down by Gen. Curtis LeMay from the secret SAC bunker,etc. Have been in the bunker and stood where LeMay counted down - the bunker is now owned by Amherst College.
Best Regards, Robert England (Bob)
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