dave0164
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Post by dave0164 on Apr 7, 2012 23:28:45 GMT 9
Bear, If I remember correctly, the only panel missing on the belly was one near the weapons bay. Coffin rack access? I only caught a glimpse when we had it in the air prior to transport. The UHF antenna has a slight dent in it from sitting on the tires for 6 years! Lots of loose screws and bags of screws are turning up.
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dave0164
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Post by dave0164 on Apr 8, 2012 7:26:50 GMT 9
Just spent part of the day getting access to the cockpit. With more than a fair amount of effort we were able to manually lift the canopy, brace it with a 2x4, and then cut a pair of 2x4s to act as dual braces. We will be fabricating some metal braces before we start working inside. I will post pictures later tonight. Here's a couple of questions for the experts:
1. Does anybody know how high the canopy can be raised? Is there a don't raise past point?
2. Is it possible to remove the rear ejection seat without removing the canopy? They had previously detatched the seat from the rails and it is sitting loose in the back.
3. Is there a procedure for total removal of the canopy?
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Post by bear (Deceased) on Apr 8, 2012 23:06:50 GMT 9
Dave Just looked at the new pictures, I see a few item are missing. Supposedly Ellsworth AFB museum has a flight simulator that is in disrepair, maybe they will part with some of the missing items. Ph 605-385-5188. Wish I was closer sure would like to help.
Bear
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dave0164
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Post by dave0164 on Apr 8, 2012 23:21:25 GMT 9
Bear, keep the info and knowlege coming - it's worth more that you can imagine. I'll try and contact Ellsworth. Happy Easter to all.
Dave
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Post by ma1marv on Apr 10, 2012 13:02:44 GMT 9
To reply to your question about removing the rear seat - the answer is yes you can remove it without removing the canopy. Since the seat is allready loose and off the slide rail, you should raise the canopy higher - it should be high enough for a pilot to get into the rear cockpit with a backpack on! Then you can lift the seat up and rotate it forward and to either right of left. It is really a two man job! I helped remove seats several times in B models.
Marv :fire_missle_ani :patriotic-flagwaver
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dave0164
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Post by dave0164 on Apr 10, 2012 13:46:16 GMT 9
Thanks Marv, I'll enlist the help of a couple of burly friends and we'll manhandle it into submission (carefully!).
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Post by ma1marv on Apr 10, 2012 22:15:35 GMT 9
In reference to the other two questions -
1. I do not think there is an upper limit to the canopy - other than the linkage with the ejection rocket. There seems to have been a physical limit that was determined by the length of that rocket piston and the motor linkage. The motor was used to raise the canopy.
2. There is a procedure for completely removing the canopy - but one thing required is an overhead crane to lift the canopy from above. With the B model, you had a longer set of support straps with hooks to grab the bottom of the canopy rails.
You might notice that there are rectangular holes in the topside of the canopy rails on the aircraft frame side. Those were the anchor points for the canopy support struts. The strut had a rectangular protrusion that fit into the hole to keep the strut from sliding out from underneath when the canopy settled down on it. The regular B-model canopy strut was probably about 4 feet long and was positioned in the middle of the canopy just about where you have your2x4 supports now. Look at some of the pictures on Pats world of a B model with the canopy open and you should see what I'm talking about.
MArv :fire_missle_ani :patriotic-flagwaver
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dave0164
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Post by dave0164 on Apr 10, 2012 22:35:49 GMT 9
Marv, we opened the canopy fairly far but based on the space at the rear of the canopy(outside just aft of the rotating beacon) the whole structure seems to have a point of no return where the canopy will contact the airframe. I did manage to twist the actuator piston that raises the canopy to a height that augments the wood supports we made. We will try and lift the canopy higher to see where it stops. I didn't realize that the piston was an electric jackscrew type, and not a hydraulic type. As far as the struts go, I'll take a look for the holes you mention. I originally thought one end went over a metal peg like point (canopy side) and the other went into the corresponding hole in the sill frame. That was just a guess, I'll look more closely.
In your opinion, would there be any real benefit for total canopy removal, or do you think we can accomplish interior work with it still attached?
Dave
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Post by bear (Deceased) on Apr 11, 2012 0:39:43 GMT 9
Dave It would just be easier to access the rear seat.. The canopy acturtor had limit switches, they may be internal or external. If they are internal by turning the shaft it will make them out of sync
Bear
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dave0164
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Post by dave0164 on Apr 11, 2012 3:05:27 GMT 9
Bear, if that's the case I'd rather not go through the potential trouble of removal. It may become necessary at some point, but if we can avoid it for now, that's fine by me.
The canopy shaft turned freely to the upright position whithout much effort. I can reverse the process when we want to close it. Later on, when we get some kind of electrical power installed for the subsystems we want operational, I'd like to have the external and internal canopy actuator switches in working order or replaced with similar.
Dave
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Post by pat perry on Apr 11, 2012 4:09:25 GMT 9
Bear, if that's the case I'd rather not go through the potential trouble of removal. It may become necessary at some point, but if we can avoid it for now, that's fine by me. The canopy shaft turned freely to the upright position whithout much effort. I can reverse the process when we want to close it. Later on, when we get some kind of electrical power installed for the subsystems we want operational, I'd like to have the external and internal canopy actuator switches in working order or replaced with similar. Dave Here's a pretty famous picture of a B Model that shows the canopy up and supports installed if it helps any. Notice all those astronauts? Pat P. Attachments:
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Post by LBer1568 on Apr 11, 2012 7:34:27 GMT 9
In the mid to late 60's all experienced CC were sent to SEA. F106 outfits were lucky to keep 50% experienced CC. I too had Run-up/Taxi license. We couldn't keep enough CC. But same thing happened to Armament guys. Lots of young MA-1 guys got proficent at loading weapons as well. MA-1 loaded most WSEM/MSM as well at McGuire. At Tyndall I denied any extra capabilities and just tried to keep MA-1 going.
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Jim Scanlon (deceased)
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Post by Jim Scanlon (deceased) on Apr 11, 2012 9:24:01 GMT 9
Dave, when I became the crew chief of B Model 901 at Minot, the first thing I was taught was to respect the canopy.
I was told to never do any work under it, unless both canopy jacks were installed.
Yes, we got the crews in and out with one jack, but for maintenance there were always two.
That puppy is very heavy, and if something goes wrong and it free-falls, anything in the way will get a big owie.
You might want to expedite a manufacture of some jacks for 0164, and keep everyone safe.
There is a lot you can do, probably most everything you intend, with the canopy on.
Have a fun, but safe time.
Jim Too
:god_bless_usa
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dave0164
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Post by dave0164 on Apr 11, 2012 12:42:39 GMT 9
Amen to that Jim. We fabricated the 2x4 braces before we even peeked in with our heads. Having lifted that dead weight canopy, I can understand the potential danger. Thanks for the reminder, and we will try and keep a safety first attitude.
Dave
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Post by Jeff Shannon on Apr 12, 2012 1:35:45 GMT 9
Just spent part of the day getting access to the cockpit. With more than a fair amount of effort we were able to manually lift the canopy, brace it with a 2x4, and then cut a pair of 2x4s to act as dual braces. We will be fabricating some metal braces before we start working inside. I will post pictures later tonight. Here's a couple of questions for the experts: 1. Does anybody know how high the canopy can be raised? Is there a don't raise past point? 2. Is it possible to remove the rear ejection seat without removing the canopy? They had previously detatched the seat from the rails and it is sitting loose in the back. 3. Is there a procedure for total removal of the canopy? 1. I cant remember how high you can raise the canopy. 2. to remove the aft seat with the canopy on after everything is disconnected raise the seat until it is clear of the rails both at the bottom and the top. the bottom needs to be pushed forward as the seat is being lifted. Next set the seat back down on the floor, grab the top of the seat and pull it towards the instrument panel, as far as you can, next pick up the bottom of the seat and front of the seat (2 person job) and rotate to the right side as the top of the seat clears the canopy sill slowly the person who has the top walks the top onto the stand, the person who has the bottom keeps lifting it up and the seat will come out upside down. install is basically reversal of the removal. 3. The canopy can be removed, there are or should be canopy hinge panels at the back of it they will need to be removed, and a canopy sling will be needed to remove it. and a hoist/crane. the canopy sling once attached to the canopy, the hoist is slowly moved back towards the tail and the canopy will raise up likes it's being ejected, the hoist has to be raised every couple of inches to help with the removal. We only removed our B model canopies a couple of times while I was at Griffiss, so I'm not sure if there is anything to remove in the hinge area. Hope this helps...
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Post by Jeff Shannon on Apr 12, 2012 2:09:36 GMT 9
One other thing about the canopy actuator, where it mounts to the canopy just below it there is a shear/roll pin that holds the mounting hardware to the actuator, it will shear as designed (most likely when you don't want it to) It has once, that I can remember sheared when the canopy was being raised and when it hit the full up the pin sheared and the canopy slammed down on the actuator, which caused the actuator to be replaced. It would also shear then the bus was being towed to the hanger if they didn't close the canopy or at least lower it to about 6" off the sill.
The B model canopy comes up through the floor boards. If I remember correctly there are 32 1/4 nuts, screws and 64 washers for the pressure seal on the floor board. you can access them from the top by removing the aft instrument panel and rudder pedals, the bottom have can only be accessed from the lower avionics bay, everything on the stable table will have to be removed. The gimbale ring which holds the actuator and allows it to pivot is near the aft cockpit rudder pedals. You will also need to make a special extension to access the 1/4 screws. We took a 6" extension cut it in half and had sheet metal weld a 5' rod between the 2 pieces. This extension will allow you to access the top of the screws for the pressure ring. the ring itself is 2 pieces of sheet metal one upper and one lower which hold the rubber pressure seal in place. if this has not been removed you will have to remove it to get the old actuator out. it would take 2 of us about a 1/2 a day just to get the old actuator out.
As stated in other post always use 2 canopy struts! one will not do the trick. the weight of the canopy alone with just 1 strut can cause the canopy to warp enough where it can be a real pain to close all the way...
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Post by bear (Deceased) on Apr 12, 2012 3:02:28 GMT 9
Dave I talked with Jeff Stoley at Wright Patterson about 106 TOs, the ones they have are available for viewing only or they will copy one page. He is sending a list of TOs and a list of venders who would have them plus the contact point at the Smith Sonian Aerospace Museum. His comment was the venders are higher but the turn around time is quicker.
Bear
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dave0164
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Post by dave0164 on Apr 12, 2012 10:31:02 GMT 9
Guys, I can't thank you enough for all the info and your efforts. This is like on the job training on steroids! It's excellent. Based on all your info, we are going to leave things alone that are in place and work around things, unless it's absolutely necessary to remove them. This also fits into our decision making about whether to go all out restoration so that things look like they did directly from the Convair factory, or try to retain some operational history and restore it so that it would appear as it would have on the flightline(ie: with a bit of "patina" still there). There is always a raging debate as to how much "patina" you can remove before all historical value is compromised. Maybe there is a blend of "new" and "historical" that can be achieved to satisfy both camps. Any thoughts on this from you guys?
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Post by Mark O on Apr 12, 2012 11:09:26 GMT 9
Here is the opinion of a guy who although was an aircraft maintainer, never actually worked on the Six.
I think your display should reflect an "operational" aircraft. When I turned wrenches I took great pride in having my aircraft well maintained as well as clean. This attitude, and practice earned me the honor as the crew chief on the "Wing-King's" KC-135 when I was at Grand Forks.
In other words, don't worry about "patina." That's something for collectors of rare items (coins, guns, etc.) and although a certain amount of "wear" will always be on an operational aircraft, it should never look worn.
Shoot, even the Six at the USAF museum in Dayton was still leaking hydraulic fluid the last time I saw her! (She may not still, but this was back in 2003.)
Just my two cents!
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Jim Scanlon (deceased)
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Post by Jim Scanlon (deceased) on Apr 12, 2012 11:35:03 GMT 9
Dave, IMHO, the more the plane looks like it just rolled out of Phase Dock, the better.
Clean, but not factory fresh.
A bit of normal wear spots is not a bad thing.
It's like a house that has a "lived-in" look.
Our birds were not "factory fresh" when they rolled out of the Depot, nor were they when we pulled them out of the hanger.
I have seen examples of both in museums.
I'd rather see a bird that looks like it has been flown, not intended to be put on display.
That's what scale models are for.
Clean it up. Paint what really needs painting. Put rivets and screws in empty holes.
Make it look nice, but don't make it a glass case display.
Jim Too
:god_bless_usa
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