48mms
F-106 Skilled
Currently: Offline
Posts: 115
Location:
Joined: January 2012
|
Post by 48mms on Feb 15, 2012 4:45:37 GMT 9
Hello. Just picked up a 354th FIS and still have a 190th FIS enroute. Here is my updated want list. I accept donations and can buy if the price is right. My apologies for being picky, no Asian made, repros or reunion pieces. 27th FIS 82nd FIS 56th FIS 46th FIS 317th FIS 87th FIS (Lockbourne AFB era) 321st FIS 332nd FIS 456th FIS 497th FIS 13th FIS 11th FIS 15th FIS 449th FIS 465th FIS 157th FIS 194th FIS 196th FIS 192nd FIS 431st FIS 440th FIS 326th FIS 63rd FIS 93rd FIS Thanks! Al
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Feb 15, 2012 6:33:54 GMT 9
QUESTION? Why is it so important to have only originals, non Asian patches? The vast majority were either made in Taiwan, Japan or Korea during the late 60s and the remainder of ADC's existance anyways. Doubtful that the vast majority of us could tell the difference anyways. Some of the outfits that you listed only existed for a short period time, such as months rather than years. Based on that, it should be easier to find hen's teeth than find original patches. Your efforts with your website and your drawings are great. Over the years, I have given away to guys here on the forum several patches because I thought that they should have them, or they needed them to add to their collection. I have been wanting a 27thFIS patch (the 1924 approved version, not the one in use today) for the past 30 years, but never activly pursued it. I would take or buy a repo to wear on my Repro MA1 jacket in an instant. Being selective (PICKY) may very well turn guys off from parting with any that they may have. It has me......... Here is a link you may not have checked- they indicate point of origin- but you only have their word for it. www.proxibid.com/asp/CatalogPrint.asp?aid=35235Sorry if I offended you, it was not my intention... The Old Sarge BTW, were I a collector, I would use what ever I could get my hands on to fill a blank..... Good luck with your collection and keep us up to date with your progress thru the list. BTW, how were you able to compile such a list? ??
|
|
48mms
F-106 Skilled
Currently: Offline
Posts: 115
Location:
Joined: January 2012
|
Post by 48mms on Feb 15, 2012 10:09:41 GMT 9
no insult taken. I would hope that I'm not "turning off" collectors by being picky. You would no more buy a dented new car over a mint new car if they were the same price. . . I hope not at least. Let me explain, to a collector, you can easily tell a repro from the real thing. I realize that many of those patches are probably never going to happen, but for what I have invested in the hobby, I want authentic. It speaks volumes to displaying actual pieces of history, whether worn on a flightsuit or fatigue uniform. The construction and make are better. I am willing to ask, search and spend what I can squeeze out. I feel I am a better alternative than going to ebay and watching these pieces of history disappear into a shoe box or into Europe. I applaud those who display their patches for all to see. And for me, they will see authentic pieces from CONAC's and ADC's past. As for knowing the squadrons, there is an article from ADC's "the Interceptor" dated 1979 that has mini compositions on most of the FIS units. Google ADC FIghter Interceptor squadrons and it should come up. It is also on USAFPatches.com I also would NEVER take someone's only patch. If you have extras, all I ask is to give me a thought. I will make no more requests on this forum, but will update you on my progress. Let me know what patches you are after and I'll contact my sources and see what I can do. And thanks for the reply, your points are valid, but I get head strong at times, something I got from my Irish Grandmother!
|
|
|
Post by Mark O on Feb 15, 2012 11:09:03 GMT 9
As much as I hate saying, "I can see it both ways", I really can.
I have been an F-106 related patch collector for several years. I mentioned I got my first one over 30 years ago (this year will be my 30th HS reunion) and I USED to be one of those, "original or nothing" collectors. The arguments you gave for going original are the same ones I used, and I can respect that.
That said, in the course of my collecting something happened.
Reality.
I do not have the money or time to go after those patches. It's just not going to happen. I've already spent more than I care to remember on the ones I have, and I discovered something in the process of collecting the repros I do have.
I am just as happy with them as I would have been with an original. Additionally, when I show my collection I never have had anyone say, "Dang. To bad you don't have an original version of that patch." Never happened. (I have got a few, "Where did you find that patch?" questions, however!)
So, that's the kind of mileage I've gotten from my patch collecting. Yours may vary, and in no way am I criticizing the path you are taking.
All the best, and I will keep my eyes open for you!
(Oh, I don't have any extras that are on your list!)
|
|
48mms
F-106 Skilled
Currently: Offline
Posts: 115
Location:
Joined: January 2012
|
Post by 48mms on Feb 15, 2012 12:03:30 GMT 9
I will say that you are lucky to have moved forward. At times I wonder why it is(for me) so important to get the originals. I think in time reality or currently, unemployment will bring me back to Earth. I was never one to drop hundreds on any patch. I have a friend that spend over $900 on two Korea vintage 318th FIS patches. He also bought a 6000pc collection for $68,000. He has money, I do not. But I can say this and I promise to get off my soap box, my dedication to find the authentic patches has made me friends who send me really valuble patches. . .for free. I think they appreciate my quest to preserve history. Recently such a friend sent me a Goose Air Defense Sector, Eastern Air Defense Force, a 4756th Air Defense Wing and a large vintage ADC patch. I in return scour the web for patches he needs. We kind of help each other out and the reward is authenticity and friendship. I will say this, if I run across a real 27th FIS, you have first dibs on it. No cost, no obligation. I know of two, but at $100 & $125 respectively, I'll hunt for a cheaper or free one. It is a cool patch. Cheers, Al
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Feb 15, 2012 13:04:31 GMT 9
Cheers back atcha Al, your explanation is good enough for me.. You will need to express your needs and desires periodically here because the pages roll over and not everyone goes back to page one to read the whole topic. So from the guy who took you to task, I am asking you to keep us up to date and to refresh your list so we know where you stand on your endeavor.. Bet it would have been nice to have around some of the base personal equip shops when they closed- you could of had patches from all over the world. The Old Sarge
|
|
MOW
Administrator
Owner/Operator
Currently: Offline
Posts: 5,821
Location:
Joined: September 2003
Retired: USAF, Civil Service
|
Post by MOW on Feb 15, 2012 18:50:03 GMT 9
As with Mark I can see it both ways, but the reality questions I need to ask are "What is an original?" and "What is an authentic?"
As is the case today, I'm sure there was not one single company that made all unit patches and I would bet of the many companies that did not all produced them themselves.
So how do we authenticate an original or authentic patch?
|
|
|
Post by ma1marv on Feb 16, 2012 2:06:58 GMT 9
Al, I'll put you down for my 11th FIS Patch - in my will!
Marv :fire_missle_ani :patriotic-flagwaver
|
|
48mms
F-106 Skilled
Currently: Offline
Posts: 115
Location:
Joined: January 2012
|
Post by 48mms on Feb 16, 2012 2:09:33 GMT 9
After "sleeping" on it, I guess used by squadron/unit is a better term. No offense to the Asian community, I simply do not like the workmanship. I know units wore them, but this is a hobby and I should, at least in theory be able to collect what I like. A few years back I contacted Pat Perry about a 456th FIS patch. He didn't have a spare, and in my quest for one I found Aeroemblem and some very high quality reunion pieces were created. That's what I am not interested in. I do have one, but as a reminder of Pat's friendship. How do we authenticate a patch? It's very hard. Even if it's void of the usuall repro ID'd (thin/inaccurate embroidery) you still have to wonder. I know people who consider overruns as fakes because the unit never used them. I go on construction and "feel". Or if my source has a good reputation. After 30 years collectioning, you can trust your gut to an extent. But for the record, I have three patches I know are 100% good, two issued and one straight off a pilot's uniform.
|
|
48mms
F-106 Skilled
Currently: Offline
Posts: 115
Location:
Joined: January 2012
|
Post by 48mms on Feb 16, 2012 2:11:08 GMT 9
Thanks MA1Marv! But I hope that is many, many years away!
|
|
|
Post by LBer1568 on Feb 16, 2012 6:17:51 GMT 9
Having been in F-106 outfits from 1963-1971, I can say that every Squadron I was with had patches made overseas. The ORIGINAL ones were made there, so how can you determine what was authetic? While I was in Korea with the 318th FIS (Feb-Aug 1968) we were taking orders from stateside FIS units for "Original" patches because they were good quality and "Cheap"... If I remember right we had like 12 different F-106 Triangular Patches in different colors. I don't remember where exactly the 539th patch was made, either Osan or Kadena Air Base area as I remember. The 318th was made in "Chicoville" which was the village outside of K-55/Osan korea. BTW we also had 25 and 50 mission patches to Chicoville. Attachments:
|
|
48mms
F-106 Skilled
Currently: Offline
Posts: 115
Location:
Joined: January 2012
|
Post by 48mms on Feb 16, 2012 6:30:09 GMT 9
The patches you have described are called "theater made" and are authentic per that. How do I tell? I look at quality of manufacturer, accuracy of design, color(s) and size. For example, there is a 5" 60th FIS out and about that per those way more knowledgeable than I have stated are fake. The unit per them never used a 5" patch. I can see that this thread has done nothing but stir up a hornet's nest. I could ask you, when you were in love, how did you know it was real? Probably your gut and the fact that everything seemed right. Not to compare patches to love, but sometimes it really comes down to your gut.
|
|
MOW
Administrator
Owner/Operator
Currently: Offline
Posts: 5,821
Location:
Joined: September 2003
Retired: USAF, Civil Service
|
Post by MOW on Feb 16, 2012 6:32:09 GMT 9
"Used or worn by a unit" is what I was thinking of as well. That's where the look, feel and origin of the patch can come into question, which affects how it is perceived as real or knockoff. I started collecting unit patches when I was still an Amn back in the 70's and became heavy into it when i went to the F-16's. At one time the 34th TFS of the 388th TFW at Hill AFB reordered their 34th RAMS patch supply, which I think I still have a small rubber banded stack of in my patch box, and that order was from overseas... Korea to be specific. Those patches looked and felt the same as any of the others, which I don't know where they came from, and they were worn by maintenance and pilots for years to come. So I would consider those as authentic unit patches even though they were made in Korea. When I went to Kunsan in 1987 for a year I saw many shops that made patches, some only for export, that looked and felt just as good as any other patch I'd seen. Even now there are still many shops that only make patches (not only unit patches) for export like coins, plaques and award stuff.
I agree with you completely that its up to the collector to have only what you want in your collection, we all have our internal rules for that, as we should. But it's hard sometimes to really know the origin of a patch, unless it's so poorly made it's obvious. For years I would never take a patch that had been sewn on and worn, because I was young and didn't know any better and they 'looked' bad (used). But those are actually good patches because as you say, they were worn and thus probably proved authenticity.
Anyway my friend I applaud you for the site and collection and hope it grows and grows. I already added the link to the Links page, but will probably include it elsewhere on the site as a reference as well.
|
|
MOW
Administrator
Owner/Operator
Currently: Offline
Posts: 5,821
Location:
Joined: September 2003
Retired: USAF, Civil Service
|
Post by MOW on Feb 16, 2012 6:36:14 GMT 9
Having been in F-106 outfits from 1963-1971, I can say that every Squadron I was with had patches made overseas. The ORIGINAL ones were made there, so how can you determine what was authetic? While I was in Korea with the 318th FIS (Feb-Aug 1968) we were taking orders from stateside FIS units for "Original" patches because they were good quality and "Cheap"... If I remember right we had like 12 different F-106 Triangular Patches in different colors. I don't remember where exactly the 539th patch was made, either Osan or Kadena Air Base area as I remember. The 318th was made in "Chicoville" which was the village outside of K-55/Osan korea. BTW we also had 25 and 50 mission patches to Chicoville. "Chicoville"! :clap OMG I haven't even seen that written anywhere in years! Nobody has referred to that in I can't remember how long :thanks for the memories. It's now Songtan, a subsection of the city of Pyongtaek.
|
|
MOW
Administrator
Owner/Operator
Currently: Offline
Posts: 5,821
Location:
Joined: September 2003
Retired: USAF, Civil Service
|
Post by MOW on Feb 16, 2012 6:39:37 GMT 9
"Hornets nest"? Nah, this is all good stuff. That's what we love about it right? :patriotic-flagwaver
|
|
48mms
F-106 Skilled
Currently: Offline
Posts: 115
Location:
Joined: January 2012
|
Post by 48mms on Feb 16, 2012 7:21:06 GMT 9
Well maybe not a hornet's nest. It's just that even if I had money, ebay is no longer an option and online militaria shops want your first and second born now. I ask because it's better than not asking and letting stuff slip away. I always give out spares, I never sell them or hoarde them. So by putting up a want list, I'm hoping someone has a double. The bottom line on any patch is simple, if you like it, it's cool. I do apologize for coming off as a snob, I just am from the school of going after the real thing. Don't do fillers, but I know many who do. Don't collect subdued, but to some they are just as valuble. Thanks for the replies.
|
|
|
Post by Mark O on Feb 16, 2012 12:39:05 GMT 9
Believe it or not the squadron commander has a lot to say in how he, or she wants the patch to look like. Of course it has to be "approved" by the Institute of Heraldry (run by the Army believe it or not!) but the CC usually gets to make the final decision. Obviously they used to be much more liberal in the rules than they are now. Just look at any of the FIS patches on the home page here! For example, when I was in the 40th Airlift Squadron we changed our patch from this... ...to this. Note the color change. In part that was because the USAF said every squadron must have some yellow, and some blue in the patch (or so I was told), however the current commander didn't like the black trim which really motivated the change. Also note how the nickname, and the squadron number/type swapped from top to bottom. That is a heraldry rule. But notice the lettering, specifically "SQ." We got a new CC, and he didn't like that so he had new patches made that looked like this... In my first year in the 40th I wore THREE different squadron patches!!!Now, sometime back our patches looked like this... ...and even this during the "Tactical" phase. Notice the baby blue compared to the newer/current version. Probably a decision made my the commander at the time. Also note the direction the eagle is flying. Turned out that was the wrong direction according to the Institute of Heraldry. Oh, look at my avatar. That's a repro from an original WWII 40th patch. Notice the shade of blue, and the direction of the eagle. I know, it gets confusing, but if you study the rules of heraldry it makes sense. Lesson over! (Sorry about the different sizes of the scans. All from different times, and I already had these in my Photobucket account.)
|
|
|
Post by pat perry on Feb 16, 2012 13:33:45 GMT 9
Here is the evolution from 1944 of Luther the Octopus patch from the 456th FIS. Now deceased 456fis.org webmaster Bob Justus found this through the USAF Historical Research Association. www.456fis.org/THE%20ORIGINAL%20LUTHER/THE%20ORIGINAL%20LUTHER.htmI imagine that all squadron emblems and patches originated in this manner and if found would add to the value of a collection in spite of the subsequent changes made by different Commanders. As you can see in this pdf file Al (48MMS) was instrumental in getting the patches made which we handed out at the 2005 Reunion in Dayton, OH. Thanks Al! Attachments:filename (12.73 KB)
|
|
|
Post by oswald on Feb 17, 2012 23:13:51 GMT 9
I remember the shop off base (Osan) had a Lucey (cartoon figure) outside the store. We used to get hats decorated there with the Korean flag and the U.S. flag embroirderied on the sides and the fronts had the 71st on them.
|
|
48mms
F-106 Skilled
Currently: Offline
Posts: 115
Location:
Joined: January 2012
|
Post by 48mms on Feb 22, 2012 4:51:18 GMT 9
Here are two donations received today, the 14th Air Force and the 354th FIS.
|
|