juice
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Post by juice on Jan 17, 2012 2:39:49 GMT 9
I have a request for members.
There appears to be a very high incidence of cancer and other severe upper body ailments among former F-106 pilots. I know of one death due to brain cancer, two of epilepsy and many cancers. I personally have developed three separate, aggressive cancers in the last 5 years for each of which I was judged to be at low risk. The combined probability of me contracting all three is significantly less than 1%
I think that prolonged exposure to high voltage / microwave radiation during thousands of hours flying the F-106 equipped with early model high power electronics without proper shielding, leads to a high incidence of these diseases. The close proximity of radar, navigation, communications, and other electronics in a close fitting, single seat cockpit may be responsible. The F-106 employed a very early application of such equipment, before proper shielding and human engineering had developed to protect the pilot.
I'd like the VA to look into this as a systematic issue for F-106 veterans, but need some idea of how widespread it is. Can anyone add more information?
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Post by bear (Deceased) on Jan 17, 2012 4:22:33 GMT 9
If what you are thinking that long time exposure to RF may have cause your problems I think the exposure time for a aircrew would be minimal compared to a person who worked in mockup or the cal Barn. Winter times at the northern bases we ran the radar with the shelter doors closed. in the MU the fluorescent lite were always blinking. The ground crews probably got more RF than aircrew did per day. That was not just the 106 but any aircraft with radar. Inside the aircraft the there was some of metal between the aircrew and antenna.
Bear
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Bullhunter
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Post by Bullhunter on Jan 17, 2012 4:58:01 GMT 9
That is very interesting as I saw a preview for an up coming medical special showing a higher rate of service members getting Lou Gehrigs disease. Lots of us have beeen exposed to lots more than the civilian work force.
Take Care Juice & God Bless.
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burlh
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Post by burlh on Jan 18, 2012 3:58:22 GMT 9
I'm not sure you're the same Juice that I flew with in the 87th FIS back in the 70's and flew out of Keflavik with but your question of physiological effects (particularly cancer) from electromagnetic radiation has been an interesting one for many years. When I left the 87th, I went to graduate school at AFIT in Nuclear Physics/Engineering and the question was raising its head then. However, scientists did not see much correlation to cancer due to the fact that (1) power company employees that constantly worked on very high transmission lines did not show a convincing increase in cancer issues and (2) employees who frequently performed Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Effect testing also did not show convincing increases to cancer. That's not to say that it is impossible but the science and facts at the time did not show a problem. Hope this helps. :fire_missle_ani
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Jim Scanlon (deceased)
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Post by Jim Scanlon (deceased) on Jan 18, 2012 9:34:11 GMT 9
As has been pointed out, those working around many of the systems on "modern" fighters were susceptible to radiation caused diseases.
We talked some time back about having to wear Doso-meters back in the Fifties.
Any radar, and other systems, has the potential to zap you with stuff you don't need or want.
Working on the Flightline, was also hazardous. Remember how many times we were reminded to not wear our hats on the line?
We also had short sleeved fatigue shirts and dress uniforms, that exposed our arms to the sun's rays.
For those who flew, there was absolutely no protection from the sun under that Plexiglas bubble.
The we went to Nam, and Agent Orange entered in to our lives.
For the past couple years, I have been making regular visits to a Dermatologist to have small skin cancers burned off or removed by MOHS surgery. Had three of those since November.
I also had a Radical Prostectomy in 2000 for Prostate Cancer.
The VA decided my Prostate Cancer was Agent Orange related.
So, boys and girls, no matter where you put in your time in uniform, or what your job was, there were lots of things going on that could cause you physical problems down the line. Let alone getting shot at, rockets pointed at your base, or other things bad guys do to those of us wearing the White Hats.
Jim Too
:god_bless_usa
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Post by steve201 (deceased) on Jan 18, 2012 11:14:58 GMT 9
well....my theory ( and it's only mine)...during the late 40's/50's/60/70's there were thousands of above ground nuclear tests that went on both in american/russian/south pacific that created hundreds of thousands of tons of airborne radioactive fall out that fell and has entered the food chain....in some cases it's feasable that concentrations in areas...now with that being injested into the systems or exposure to both the radiation and the hi levels of HIRF......with that said....it's known by the medical community that hi levels of auto immune diseases/lukemia and cancer rates started climbing like crazy...... I was minimally exposed to radiation from the dept of the navy when I worked at Mare Island Navshpyd in the early 80's....with that said I contracted an auto immune disease that almost killed me....no known cause for this other than a weakened auto immune system..... so with the thought that only HIRF radiation can cause cancer and other diseases ..unless you were exposed directly to some of it...then I don't see how it can cause it...most systems onboard military aircraft are hardened from EMP/HIRF...(hirf=high intensity radio freq)....thus I seriously doubt that if you were working or flying the plane..that any radiation would have exposed to a person unless you stood right in front of the radar antenna....then you'd be microwaved and would know it quite quickly....
now again..this is just my theory....from my own studies...the atmosphere can move tons of radioactive material would have been ejected into the air with these blasts and carried around the world several times dropping just about all over the planet........so...it's quite feasable that diseases would increase.....heck..the russians detonated one of the largest thermonuclear devices ever built by man in siberia....and where did all that ejecta land??....it didn't fall into the sea.......that's for sure...just look at the material that a volcano spits up into the air.....mt st helens blew material up almost 6mi's into the atmostphere and they tracked it around the planet 7 times .......
Steve
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Jim Scanlon (deceased)
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Post by Jim Scanlon (deceased) on Jan 18, 2012 13:00:02 GMT 9
Interesting theory, Steve.
When the bombs were being set off in the desert above Las Vegas, the air currents carried much of it in to Southern Utah, even East of the mountains.
When Dick Powell was directing "The Conqueror " in 1955 (released in 1956), they were filming in Southern Utah.
What makes that interesting is the number of those involved who died of cancer.
Dick Powell, Susan Hayward and John Wayne.
Was this a coincidence?
I don't know, but there was a high cancer incidence for many years in the areas where the fallout from Yucca Flats landed and was in the soil.
Jim Too
:god_bless_usa
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Post by steve201 (deceased) on Jan 18, 2012 14:02:21 GMT 9
I've heard one or two numbers of detonations in the desert and between the US and Russia was around 1300-1500 detonations in that 30 yr period.........now think about all that fallout that flew around and where it could have landed.....I still think the rise of cancer and auto immune disease as well as lukemia cases dramatically rose in the 80-90's
I rest my theory...
Steve
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Post by lindel on Jan 18, 2012 14:06:55 GMT 9
The aircrew wasn't likely to get much exposure to the RF from the radar. The were several feet behind, and a little above the antenna, and separated from the business by an antenna that was built to reflect the radiation either away from, or to the feedhorn of the radar. Add to that all the equipment, bulkhead and a mass of "inert" aluminum and the aircrew were a lot safer than anyone around the pointy end of the airplane!
If anyone was likely to get more than their fair share of RF, it would be in the Mock Up. We were more likely to have the FDT pushed back and troubleshooting a live system than anyone else in the squadron. And usually for several hours during a week. We also didn't have the luxury of "doors" to help shield us either!
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Post by Mark O on Jan 18, 2012 14:44:19 GMT 9
This has been an interesting thread to follow for sure. Honestly though, my first thoughts brought me back to a joke we would play on young co-pilots, and maintainers when I was a crew chief on KC-135s. We would have the "victim" take the fiberglass panel off the electrical equipment rack behind the cockpit, and hold it up in front of the nose of the aircraft so we could "calibrate the radar." I know, it was a terrible joke! Someone would be sitting in the pilot's seat with the window open, and keep hollering at the victim to, "Back up!! No, farther back! Hold it up higher!" (And so on!) Obviously we wouldn't have the radar on, but it helped if at least you had a Hobart hooked up with power on! Here's the best shot I have in my collection of one of our victims. She was a young specialist (I don't recall which specialty - but it wasn't radar) we pulled the joke on during a deployment to Ecuador in 2006. I took the photo from inside a Metro, and we actually got a pilot to get her from the cockpit!
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Post by Mark O on Jan 18, 2012 15:07:16 GMT 9
I've heard one or two numbers of detonations in the desert and between the US and Russia was around 1300-1500 detonations in that 30 yr period.........now think about all that fallout that flew around and where it could have landed.....I still think the rise of cancer and auto immune disease as well as leukemia cases dramatically rose in the 80-90's I rest my theory... Steve Here is a very interesting video of every nuclear bomb exploded by year and country since the world discovered how to it. Not the actual explosions, just a graphic representation. Please read the notes under the video. (I usually don't read the comments which are below the comments as I just get po'd.) The sound is sort of annoying by the way, and it didn't add anything to the story for me anyway.
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MOW
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Post by MOW on Jan 18, 2012 22:57:37 GMT 9
juice i'm glad you made it over and posted. I was sure it would some responses and as you can see it sure has. A very interesting discussion!
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Post by LBer1568 on Jan 19, 2012 0:58:58 GMT 9
Having been an MA-1 troop for over 8 years, I was exposed to high power radiation as well. Mine, and many other MA-1 folks, resulted in premature cataracts of the eyes. I was 43 and 45 when I had my surgery to restore sight. But the VA refuses to accept published articles on radiated energy on eye issues. I can point out two examples of radiation.
In the mock up at Christmas we used to put 28volt neon glow bilbs on windows in front of Radar in form of Christmas tree. As antenna sweept across, the bulbs would glow. On the flight line to test IR tracking we would have someone light up cig in front of aircraft and walk back and forth and let the IR track movement. But guess what happens when in IR Track mode? Radar antenna also follows IR antenna., and is in "pencil" beam mode, so person was getting concentrated dose of RF while walking. I don't remember ever using Radar in Hanger or cal barn with doors closed. But I guess it did happen. But I have read considerable data concerning pilots and natural radiation at altitude. Radiated energy is strong at higher altitudes where the atmosphere doesn't absorb it. All passengers are affected as well, but crewmembers are more prone to it since they fly more often. Nothing to do with onboard radiation, but related to naturally occurring types.
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Post by steve201 (deceased) on Jan 19, 2012 2:45:04 GMT 9
I've heard one or two numbers of detonations in the desert and between the US and Russia was around 1300-1500 detonations in that 30 yr period.........now think about all that fallout that flew around and where it could have landed.....I still think the rise of cancer and auto immune disease as well as leukemia cases dramatically rose in the 80-90's I rest my theory... Steve Here is a very interesting video of every nuclear bomb exploded by year and country since the world discovered how to it. Not the actual explosions, just a graphic representation. Please read the notes under the video. (I usually don't read the comments which are below the comments as I just get po'd.) The sound is sort of annoying by the way, and it didn't add anything to the story for me anyway. I rest my case...although my numbers were quite off...2053 bombs detonated HAS to have an affect on biological life...... Steve
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Post by LBer1568 on Jan 19, 2012 4:15:45 GMT 9
Does your number include only atmospheric tests? Since 1962 the vast majority of US testing has been sunsurface and most did not release radiation into air..ie, self contained underground. I believe USSR, India, Pakie, and North korea have also been underground. So while the above ground tests were high, it could have been worse.
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Bullhunter
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Post by Bullhunter on Jan 19, 2012 6:06:26 GMT 9
We all know what the reactor meltdown did in Russia and how far it spread. Now we have Japan's accident. Shouldn't we be worried?
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Post by steve201 (deceased) on Jan 19, 2012 7:37:20 GMT 9
the numbers I heard many yrs ago was between 1200-1300 total above ground testing....I'm not sure how accurate those tests were....I know we did a mess of them underground...but with the end of WW2 ..the 3 detonations that happened and then the bunch after the war in the pacific and nevada test ranges.....tons of material was thrown into the air...now..following the jet streams....it fell back onto the planet at one time or another.... then you have chernoble....then the accidents in japan.....china did some above ground and the above ground Tzar bomba from russia..which was the largest bomb ever detonated above ground ....think of how much radiation was thrown into the air.....gotta come back down... guys.....all the damage we're doing ...we've done it too ourselves....although yeah..smoking isn't good to do...but I believe 90% of the deaths that have happened and spiked in the 70-90's are directly from the radiation that was ejected into the air by nuclear above ground testing and accidents.....I think in a few yrs you'll see another spike here in the US of cancer and lukemia related diseases......
but again....that's just my theory......it certainly correlates with the spike in cancer/lukemia rates in the US......
Steve
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Jim Scanlon (deceased)
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Post by Jim Scanlon (deceased) on Jan 19, 2012 9:12:46 GMT 9
You used to be able to buy a picture post card in Vegas that gives credence to what Steve is saying.
The picture was taken from Vegas, and shows a mushroom cloud out on the Nevada desert.
Yes, the shots were not all that far away.
Military members were also sent out to the Test Site, and given welders goggles, as their only protection, and were in trenches some miles from the shot.
When the first live Genie was launched and detonated, there were some Air Force personnel standing on the sand, pretty much directly below the blast, to prove it was not harmful to humans.
When the testing was going on in the Pacific, there were specially equipped F-84s which flew through the blast cloud and gathered airborne samples in collectors built in to wing tip pods.
When they landed, there were ground crews who washed the plane off with fire hoses, and the water just ran in to the Pacific Ocean.
I worked with one of the crew chiefs whilst at The SCAB, and he told me there really were no special precautions.
Is it dangerous stuff?
Of course it is.
However, and I'm not being glib or dismissive, there is a equation that has not changed since Adam: "One out of every one will die".
It is not a matter of saving lives, as that isn't going to happen with our physical bodies, it is a matter of trying to prevent some of the suffering radiation caused illnesses bring.
The Sun is the greatest radiation danger we have, yet we continue to go out in it's rays, and let it cook us.
We certainly need the Vitamin D the Sun produces, but not the harmful rays it also delivers.
Hebrews 9:27 says: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:". (KJV)
Jim Too
:god_bless_usa
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Post by steve201 (deceased) on Jan 19, 2012 10:01:02 GMT 9
granted nobody gets off this planet alive......but why must we suffer from the fed's idiocy??....I lost both parents to cancer and after doing some research found numbers that were shocking....somewhere in my research many yrs ago I ran across a bell chart of some sort that showed the cancer rate spiking a few yrs after some of the testing that went on.....
scared the crap outa me...
Steve
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