finnwolf
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Post by finnwolf on Jun 6, 2012 23:06:45 GMT 9
Hello all. For the longest time I decided to build a plastic model. Maybe I' ll try to be a bit more detail-concious than when I was a kid. Of course I'll start with my favorite jet fighter F-106. This Revell/Monogram 1/48 scale model has four Falcons plus one Genie. Unfortunately all the falcons seem to be of the radar variety, so I think I'll modify one pair to somewhat resemble the heatseekers. My question goes in which order where they situated in the weapons bay? Even Pat's World gives conflicting information. www.f-106deltadart.com/weapons_aim4.htm"AIM-4's were loaded on the F-106 with the AIM-4G on the rear rails and AIM-F on the front rails"www.f-106deltadart.com/history.htm"If all four missiles were to be fired, the 4Gs were fired first so that they would not inadvertently lock onto the radar guided missiles rather than the target. As a further precaution, the 4F pair was carried in the rear bay."Makes sense. However (unless I'm mistaken) a photograph on another forum forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=113417again seems to depict the 4G:s on the rear and 4F:s on the front rails! So how was it usually done? My second question: The model painting instructions give just white for the Genie. However Google finds photos of Genies with a blue midsection. Where those just trainers and what was the coloring of a typical LIVE operational Genie, if anyone has actually seen one?
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sixerviper
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Post by sixerviper on Jun 7, 2012 1:54:38 GMT 9
Any time you see a munition with blue on it, it's inert. Live munitions will be any color other than blue. It's been so long since I've seen a Falcon or a Genie, that I forget the actual color scheme. I remember Genies being white. I remember Falcons being red (or maybe orange) and white. I was just an instrument weenie and too wet behind the ears to really get far past the Instrument shop and some MA-1. The Six was my first jet and I was just a feckless teenager when I first got on it.
If I remember correctly, they didn't use dummy rounds of Falcons like they do today with AIM-9s and AIM-120s. They used WSEMs on the rails which recorded most of the launch parameters on paper for evaluation in the squadron after the flight. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, please.
As far as which type of Falcon went to which rail, I have no clue. What you described makes some sense to me.
:e8new
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Post by falconkeeper on Jun 7, 2012 2:53:22 GMT 9
Finnwolf, the F-106 could carry the 4F or 4G on any rail. The 4Fs were normally carried on the front rails to give the seeker head of the missile better reception of the return radar pulses. The 4G had a glass dome on the nose to allow the IR through. It looked almost green, like some iridescent beetles. The live Genie was pure white. The blue band was munitions speak for inert. The Falcons were international orange, except for the white areas. There are many pictures of them around the internet. The white on the fin leading edge was the trigger area for the warhead. Good luck on the model.
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Post by Diamondback on Jun 7, 2012 5:44:44 GMT 9
Glad I'm building mine with closed bay... but this will also help with the weps that are being surplused into my 1/48 "Munitions Bunker". OP, good questions, and respondents, thanks from over here as well. :yellow-beer One of these days, I'm gonna learn that the "smile" text triggers an "LMFAO" emoticon here...
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finnwolf
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Post by finnwolf on Jun 7, 2012 5:50:01 GMT 9
Thanks guys! I should have guessed the meaning of color blue, even in the Finnish army (in which most of us serve 8-11, nowadays 6-12 months), assault rifle practice bullets are blue. But some practice munitions here, like grenades and mines, are yellow. (I was just a medic in AA artillery) Descriptions of Falcon railing seem to vary, both versions make sense. Maybe it was not that critically important? There are plenty of pictures available of the white/ bright red coloring of the Falcons. (Edit: Is it true that besides getting a more certain hit, the Falcons were fired in pairs because F-106 weapon bay doors had enough hydraulic pressure for only three openings of the doors? So they could not be fired one by one? Odd.) I understand that pilots and maintenance technicians don't give so much attention to coloring details. Maybe hardcore kit bullders do, but hey, most of them are not pilots or techs (neither am I), but nerds. I probably don't want to reach a level quite so "anal": Still, since I like the Century series, maybe I'll build some kits of them. Aeroplane-wise the Six was probably the best (minus the missiles), but is virtually unknown here in Europe (never used in war). B-58 in 1/48 would be nice too and then the Century series contemporaries like the Crusader, British Lightning and then Mig-21 and Saab Draken, both of which the Finnish Air Force used before F-18 Hornets.
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Post by shadowgunner on Jun 7, 2012 9:50:30 GMT 9
Thanks guys! (Edit: Is it true that besides getting a more certain hit, the Falcons were fired in pairs because F-106 weapon bay doors had enough hydraulic pressure for only three openings of the doors? So they could not be fired one by one? Odd.) I understand that pilots and maintenance technicians don't give so much attention to coloring details. Maybe hardcore kit bullders do, but hey, most of them are not pilots or techs (neither am I), but nerds. . The Six used high-pressure air stored in large bottles in the fuselage. The bottles held a finite amount of pressurized air (3000psi regulated to 1500psi) which was used for the Arm Bay Doors and missile rail extension/retraction. The stored air was also used for deployment of the IRST and emergency services such as the vari-ramps and gear blown-down. :fire_missle_ani :fire_missle_ani :fire_missle_ani As far as inert weapons, we used WSEMs which were AIM-4 simulators (painted blue) and carried on the rails. We also used an MSR (also painted blue), which was a long metal tube containing recording equipment. It was mounted in the rack to simulate the Genie. Contrary to typical practice with inert munitions; our inert devices were NOT launched or dropped during practice; as they were electronic measuring devices only.
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soc
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Post by soc on Jun 7, 2012 11:40:44 GMT 9
Here's an image I took a few years ago showing the AIM-4G color scheme. The AIM-4F is the missile in the back, it's identical except for not having a glass window on the nose! While these are marked inert, the operational rounds had the same colors. Red for the body and wings, white for the forward fuselage, fuzes, and wing roots. The red doesn't really show up good in the image since I used my old non-DSLR camera. The USAF museum is one weird palce to try and get good pictures due to the lighting. I've got better images here: www.ausairpower.net/Falcon-Evolution.html Those will give you a better idea of the paintjob. Attachments:
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Post by ma1marv on Jun 7, 2012 13:29:57 GMT 9
Sorry Shadowgunner - but the MSR's (McDonnell Simulator Rockets) were painted a nice bright AGE yellow! Not Blue! That was used for the WSEM's. I have seen the MSR's stripped of all paint and highly polished with that pink compound to a really nice chrome plated look!
(Unless your squadron happened to generate their own paint scheme.)
MArv :fire_missle_ani :patriotic-flagwaver
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f89j1905
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Post by f89j1905 on Jun 8, 2012 10:42:02 GMT 9
Here's the correct painting for the last version of the ATR-2N or dummy Genie. Blue rocket motor heater blanket from just forward of the fin & flap fairing to just aft of the aft umbilical well and pull out switches. INERT ROCKET MOTOR in black on each side of the motor at the 3-9 0'clock positions. Four blue discs on the dummy warhead at the 2-4-8-10 o'clock positions. For the MB-1/AIR-2A All white with a 3" brown stripe around the motor at the warhead mounting flange. Black warhead stenciling on the warhead left side. Probably more info than needed! :teacher Worked on the AIM-4A/D never the F/G so no help there. :scratch_head
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Jim Scanlon (deceased)
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Post by Jim Scanlon (deceased) on Jun 8, 2012 11:50:55 GMT 9
The funny colour schemes go back further than the ones mounted on Century Series B 1 RDs.
The Mighty Mouse, 2.75" Mark 40 FFAR, was actually fired at Yuma, Mobile and Tyndal.
Guess they were cheap.
Plus there was no electronic gizzy to put in the nose.
The only difference between the regular rocket and the practice one was the nose.
For practice, they had a blue/red/yellow/green, etc.. plaster nose.
It was like a pointed piece of chalk.
When it went through the rag, it left a mark.
That way the scorers could tell which pilot hit the rag.
When it was time to fire on the Ryan Firebee, they used the dummy head, and sometimes the explosive head.
The dummy head damaged the Firebee, but didn't usually destroy it.
When it ran out of fuel, a chute opened up and it floated to the sand.
If they were using the explosive head, one hit was the end of the Firebee.
So our Saber Dogs were not loaded hot very often at Yuma.
For the 89, 94 and other planes using the 2.75", I suspect that was the same method.
The Mustangs we had at The SCAB didn't carry rockets, only six .50 Brownings.
They fired at a rag, also using different coloured plaster "bullets".
My, wasn't the old way simpler?
Jim Too - Troglodyte of the highest (or maybe lowest) order.
:god_bless_usa
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Post by shadowgunner on Jun 9, 2012 5:02:15 GMT 9
Sorry Shadowgunner - but the MSR's (McDonnell Simulator Rockets) were painted a nice bright AGE yellow! Not Blue! That was used for the WSEM's. I have seen the MSR's stripped of all paint and highly polished with that pink compound to a really nice chrome plated look! (Unless your squadron happened to generate their own paint scheme.) MArv Actually Marv I believe I was mistaken on the MSRs; however I don't recall ever seeing them AGE yellow, but I do recall some being bare metal (not polished). Here is a good picture of the MSR I found in an article about CF-101s Attachments:
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Post by Jim on Jun 9, 2012 5:29:23 GMT 9
Here's the correct painting for the last version of the ATR-2N or dummy Genie. Blue rocket motor heater blanket from just forward of the fin & flap fairing to just aft of the aft umbilical well and pull out switches. INERT ROCKET MOTOR in black on each side of the motor at the 3-9 0'clock positions. Four blue discs on the dummy warhead at the 2-4-8-10 o'clock positions. For the MB-1/AIR-2A All white with a 3" brown stripe around the motor at the warhead mounting flange. Black warhead stenciling on the warhead left side. Probably more info than needed! Worked on the AIM-4A/D never the F/G so no help there. THATS HOW I 'MEMBER THEM........ From more than 50 years ago
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Post by LBer1568 on Jun 9, 2012 8:01:07 GMT 9
The MSR was used along with WSEM's to "qualify" the weapons system for loading live ordance. The MSR output indications, representing the presence of special weapon signals, appear as numbers and functions photographed on Polaroid-type film. The main thing we looked for was Time of Flight (TOF). Sure we had to have launch signal and rocket motor start. But the TOF was how the Weapons System determined when to explode. The minimum TOF was 6 seconds and required a severe escape manuaver to keep the six out of the nuke blast. The plane actually was to "ride" the leading edge of blast. The WSEM had a roll of paper photo paper and had to be developed in photo machine. It recorded all of the signals sent to the missile, including Lock-on signal, seeker head position and steering signals. If the MA-1/Weapons System had a failed MSR/WSEM we had to accomplish maintenance and then run grouind simulation and then they would reschedule flight. We would use actual MSR to retest Rocket, but had a MA-1 tester, a rectangular box with test switches and test points to check live singals. I worked Aircrew Debriefing at Tyndall forover a year to recover hearing, so my job was to also certify MSR/WSEM film/tapes. One of our biggest issues was the pilot. They were supposed to do real intercept and debrief flight conditions on "run". Too many times they would forget to do intercept so they would run on any available TWA/Delta flight and give us bogus flight parameters. More than a few times I would tell pilot he was full of it. The WSEM provided all the parameters and usually didn't lie. I was also lucky enough to work the William Tell in 1970 as one of the official certifiers for MSR/WSEM. When live firing, a live missle was on one rail and WSEM on other. We had one bird come down for live fire and had a MSR TOF of 0. They impounded the bird and I was one of MA-1 guys who ran ground MSR to verify problem. They had replaced the main Genie Umbilical Plug on Aircraft prior to deploying and had shorted two wires together, setting an illegal TOF of 0 seconds. The base claimed they certified the bird just prior to deploying to Tyndall. Luckily the rocket had multiple safety devices. When rocket was kicked out of weapons bay, a laynard was attached to airframe and would pull a safety pin in Genie to allow arming. The rocket motor had to fire and the Genie had a "G" switch also in safety loop. Then the only thing left was TOF to set motor burn time and bingo Weapons explode. Attachments:
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f89j1905
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Post by f89j1905 on Jun 9, 2012 13:21:19 GMT 9
On both the '101 and 6 the fire control system/radar or whatever you "electron chasers" want to call it sent a signal to activate the thermal batteries in the front end of the rocket motor. When the rocket was ejected from the bay the lanyards attached to the two rocket motor pullout switches and MB-1 rack would close the pullout switches and allow the thermal battery voltage to ignite the rocket motor igniter. The only Safety Pin on the Genie was the rocket motor safety pin on the bottom of the rocket motor and it was removed by the "Load Toads" at the completion of the load. It was not removed by the lanyards. Rocket motor burn time was NOT variable, the 328 lbs of solid propellant burned in 2 seconds, developing 36,250 pounds of thrust and propelling the Genie at roughly 3000' ft /sec. On the F-89J the rocket was rail launched so the rocket motor igniter signal from that big electrical thing in the pointed end of the airplane went right to the rocket motor igniter by passing the thermal batteries. I don't remember different colored chalk bullets for the .50 cal. Our 51's and 94's had the regular .50 cal bullet tips dipped in 1/2" of various colors of paint for each aircrew for scoring.
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Jim Scanlon (deceased)
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Post by Jim Scanlon (deceased) on Jun 9, 2012 22:16:15 GMT 9
: Whoops! : Yep, the .50 bullets were not chalk/plaster, but dipped in paint. My foggy old head knew what it was, but my fingers typed the wrong words. Had they been chalk/plaster, they probably wouldn't have reached the rag. Guess that is what happens after a few years. I was around the Mustangs in 1952 - 1953, so it has been a while. Jim Too :god_bless_usa
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Post by LBer1568 on Jun 9, 2012 22:46:40 GMT 9
Sorry, I assumed the lanyard pulled a pin instead of switches, thanks for correcting me. I was also wrong on TOF not being rocket time, but time before detonating. Damn one learns quick how much they either forgot or never knew. But thats why we all contribute. I remember different colored Genies. At Tyndall when they fired Genies, they had a small explosive charge in head. They weren't Nuke's-all white and they weren't inert-part Blue. They had partial International Orange coloring to indicate explosives charges. Or at least that was my understanding why they were Orange. Correct me if I am wrong.
I also remember reading in MA-1 books that missiles were fired in pairs to increase the Probability od Kill (PK) ratio. PK was made up of many components such as probability of detection, probability of hit, probability of kill, reliability of missile, mission parameters etc. So firing two at once didn't increase PK by 2 but it was probaby close. BTW, the PK for Genie was theoratically more than 1. As we used to say in AF, Nuke'm til they glow so Army can kill'em after dark.
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Post by Jim on Jun 10, 2012 0:50:14 GMT 9
I don't remember different colored chalk bullets for the .50 cal. Our 51's and 94's had the regular .50 cal bullet tips dipped in 1/2" of various colors of paint for each aircrew for scoring. So did ours on the 86, and we tire kickers had to link,dip, load our own ammo..... End of runway crew double checked to make sure the charging handle in the nosewell had been properly stowed... Taxied with live guns.........
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f89j1905
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Post by f89j1905 on Jun 10, 2012 13:49:53 GMT 9
Last bit on the Genie. The typical Genie fired at Tyndall was designated ATR-2A and contained all live components minus the nuke w/h. The color was all white with a 3" brown band around the motor and 4 orange circles on a dummy w/h to indicate spotting charges.
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finnwolf
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Post by finnwolf on Jun 12, 2012 3:17:32 GMT 9
Nothing much to do with the model kit (which btw has not arrived yet, the dealer mailed that some items are out of stock for a week or so. I hope only some paints, which I ordered by their number... and not the rather rare kit itself that is missing) , so just for general interest: Interesting stuff about the Genie from you. But the TOF was how the Weapons System determined when to explode. The minimum TOF was 6 seconds and required a severe escape manuaver to keep the six out of the nuke blast. The plane actually was to "ride" the leading edge of blast. I suppose the TOF timer pretty much determined the correct lauching distance and speed of the Six? Was the timer set preflight or could it be adjusted during the flight by SAGE or the pilot? (Edit: Is it true that besides getting a more certain hit, the Falcons were fired in pairs because F-106 weapon bay doors had enough hydraulic pressure for only three openings of the doors? So they could not be fired one by one? Odd.) The Six used high-pressure air stored in large bottles in the fuselage. The bottles held a finite amount of pressurized air (3000psi regulated to 1500psi) which was used for the Arm Bay Doors and missile rail extension/retraction. The stored air was also used for deployment of the IRST and emergency services such as the vari-ramps and gear blown-down. OK, pressurized air, not regular hydraulics. But was there enough air for only three weapon shots, as sometimes stated? Why not say, a bigger bottle? Not that I care much, but the placement of the Falcons remains unclear. We have Pat's World: Even Pat's World gives conflicting information. www.f-106deltadart.com/weapons_aim4.htm"AIM-4's were loaded on the F-106 with the AIM-4G on the rear rails and AIM-F on the front rails"www.f-106deltadart.com/history.htm"If all four missiles were to be fired, the 4Gs were fired first so that they would not inadvertently lock onto the radar guided missiles rather than the target. As a further precaution, the 4F pair was carried in the rear bay."And then: The 4Fs were normally carried on the front rails to give the seeker head of the missile better reception of the return radar pulses. Both make sense. But as a total ignoramus layman I ask, since Falcon IR seekers were I hear notoriously short on coolant and active targeting time, wouldn't the G:s need the "front seat" on the rails even more? Plus when launched in pairs that not-being-lured-by-the-first missile issue, that Pat's World explains? When lauching a pair of Falcons, were all four rails lowered or just the two? In either case, would not extending all that ironmongery cause disturbing turbulence like a very irregularly shaped air brake? More (sorry ) : Finnish Drakens used Falcons too. Some Swedish licence built versions. But latter years before F-18 Hornets I think in a combination of two radar Falcons and two Sidewinders. Would it have been impossible to modify the Six to carry Sidewinders internally? The weapons bay looks roomy enough.
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MOW
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Post by MOW on Jun 12, 2012 8:30:29 GMT 9
When lauching a pair of Falcons, were all four rails lowered or just the two? In either case, would not extending all that ironmongery cause disturbing turbulence like a very irregularly shaped air brake? The rails dropped in pairs, not all 4 at once.
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